MaxFly

Miami's definitely asserted themselves as the strongest team in the east. I'm sure Detroit and Indiana will have something to say about that, but for the first time in a long time, the East may be interesting to watch. I still expect San Antonio to dominate.

Welcome HighIQ.

And I still say people are relying on their racist perceptions. I haven't tried to cover-up anything. You seem to think that brow-beating and threatening makes you correct. It doesn't. You've provided excuse after excuse and dismissals, even of first person statements and stories that you said didn't exist in the first place. You said, "not ONE is first person." You were wrong, but instead of simply admitting that and moving on, you attempted to deflect... As for my usage of first person, most of the people on the ground that you quoted were relaying things that they were told. Regardless, it's not my statements that are in question here, but what TRULY happened in New Orleans. You write better than I do, hell, you write better than my lawyers, but this is not a debate. If what you're after is to be voted the smartest person here, you can have my proxy. The truth is that I have posted a number of statements in this thread that were first person. First person statements from reporters who described what they witnessed, first person statements from witnesses. I even posted a confirmation of an arrest of someone who is suspected of shooting at a rescue helicopter, and a confirmation of the story involving the navy contractors. There are indeed first person statements. You say that it is not your statements that are in question, but when you say things that are false and then you repeatedly say that you deal in "facts," it is hard to take what you say seriously. What's worse, you tried to distance yourself from what you said without first acknowledging it, trying to move the focus of the topic onto me as evidenced in your response. I added something that you had left out in order to skew the question of racist perceptions to appear as if only black people suffer from them. I didn't attemt to skew anything. The point of the example was to show that even when there is no racism at all, where it played no role, the perception of some will be that racism was involed anyway. Are white people guilty of this as well. Of course. The examples I used were specifically relevant to the relief response after Katrina however. In an earlier post, you pointed out that in response to the slow relief efforts after Katrina... Of course, white people will then say "but it could have happened to anybody"... but black people will answer, "but naturally it happened to us! At the same time, in the tear gas shooting that we have already established as having nothing to do with racism, if the person who was shot were black, the exact same thing would have been said. White people would say that anyone could have been shot... black people would respond that it naturally happened to a black person. Again, the point is that even when there isn't racism, some will perceive there to be, whether black or white, and this seems to be the case with the slow relief response in New Orleans. You did, and nowhere in anything that I have written is such a viewpoint evident. On the other hand, what you have written is crawling with it. No hypocrisy there. First, please post the quote where I said or intimated that you had "racist perceptions." I'd be more than happy to rebuff your claim. I have a post in mind, and I have already addressed what I said and what I meant, but I'd be more than happy to correct you again. I'll let you do the homework. I'm not one to mince words. If I truly believed that you had racist perceptions, I would have said it by now, and it would have been explicit, regardless of whether you would feel insulted or hurt. Please proceed to post that quote of mine and explain yourself. Second, please post examples of things that I have said that are "crawling" with revelation of my "racist perceptions." You made a statement, back it up. I'd be more than happy to set you straight on this as well. I believed these stories as well at first, but became increasingly skeptical as I observed none of it, and no evidence of it was forthcoming. I would be just as skeptical regardless of the races involved. I haven't forgotten anything. You posted a link concerning the arrest of someone who was shooting at helicopters days afterwards and outside of New Orleans. WTF does that have to do with the discussion? You posted an EXCERPT from an article about the bodies, with only ONE body witnessed that supposedly had succumbed from violence, and that spoke of another. You posted an article about a reporter who did NOT witness ANY violence. The Navy contractors story was all over the news, it also happened afterwards. You posted the doctor's account, which you find highly plausible and I find somewhat suspect. So, out of all that rampaging carnage you present "evidence" of ONE body, ONE mention of a body, ONE shooter in a white shirt, and ONE report of shots fired. Of this "evidence", NONE of it has been physically backed up. Yet, I shouldn't be skeptical? Even giving every one of these full credence, it falls far short of being indicative of the raping, murdering and pillaging rampaging hordes that we heard so much about. In fact, judging from this "evidence", the crime rate in New Orleans actually DROPPED. What does this have to do with the discussion? Algiers is a suburb of New Orleans affected by the hurricane. A young man was arrested for shooting at a rescue helicopter there. According to you, there's supposed to be no evidence of such things taking place. Well now someone has been arrested for it. You said that that these things we unsubstantiated. You said that there were no first person accounts. You said that there was no evidence. I have provided specific instances of a few reports and first hand accounts of people saying that many of these things actually did happen. I won't waste time doing all of your homework for you. If you are truly openminded, you will seek further information. Don't limit yourself to only what I have provided. Also I'm not sure if you expect news agencies to publish pictures of someone laying in waste, or if you expect a cameraman to chance upon a rape taking place and say, "Oh, look, lets go film it." You seem to ignore the fact that New Orleans has undergone a massive hurricane and flooding and that many of the protocols set in place to investigate crimes and to report crimes are almost completely non-existent and non-functioning. Take a look at the link below. http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2448 BTW, you used "victims". Do you mean "crime victims"? You mean you have found some? Link please. No, I didn't mean crime victims. I meant the victims of the hurricane. However, I'm glad you brought this up. Could you please link to anything where witnesses have said that crime was mind, minor, or non-existent. Have any witnesses said that most of these reports are false? I would like a link for those please. I've looked, and I was unable to find any. Also, in case you missed this in the link I provided above, I'm providing a more explicit link... You asked for a crime victim. This person was a victim of the hurricane, the flood, the government's incompetence, and lastly, rape. Charmaine Neville, has reported that she was raped. Below is one of the first hand accounts that isn't supposed to exist according to you. http://2theadvocate.com/stories/090405/new_soul001.shtml "Referring to getting raped, Neville said, "What he took from me was nothing, because he can't take my spirit, he can't take my soul. My soul is New Orleans." Really? Would you like to examine history and see how these things usually turn out? Your problem is you're trying to prove that you're right. I'm trying to get to what's right. You're in this little battle of wits all by yourself. I could care less about scoring points, facts are ALL that I care about. Yes, please provide information on the last severe natural disaster in which a reasonable level of crime broke out in the aftermath and National Guard troops were sent in with orders to reestablish order and with shoot to kill orders, and then tell me how it turned out. Thanks. Also, I've already addressed your affinity to "facts" in this post. Feel free to scroll up to reference my statements if you feel the need. I've presented plenty of logic, and examined every point and C&P and link that you have presented in depth as well. I'm not the one who presented the early statement of the Police superintendent as evidence but then dismissed the later statement by the same man because he "has lost much of his police force". Perhaps we'll revisit your logic. In the meantime I didn't dismiss Compass' latter statment. I did point out that much of his police force, 200 or so officers as reported, have abandoned the force. It would be hard to find evidence of rapes and shootings when there is no official way to report crimes, when people are moving around from shelter to shelter, and when police were busy fighting what must have been imaginary criminals. I expect that all of this would be even harder when much of the police force is missing. I also suspect that police officers didn't bring along rape kits to substantiate these claimed rapes and I suspect that they haven't gone around asking "Who's been raped." Also, taking Compass' statement, Charmaine Neville's is an unsubstantiated rape. You seem to enjoy doing this tedious tit-for-tat bull**** instead of taking in the big picture. Well, I'm a big picture kind of guy, and frankly you just think a little too small for me. But, I'll tell you what. Time is going to prove whether the violence there was over-exaggerated and over-sensationalized or not. If I'm wrong, I'll come right here and admit it, right here out in the open for all to see. Will you do the same? We'll see.... Lol, thanks for the kind words. Incidentally, this whole thing is not about who is right and who is wrong. It is a shame that you think it is. People have actually suffered and are suffering the things we have discussed. It goes far beyond being right or wrong, but for someone who looks at the big picture, you haven't seemed to grasp that yet. I hope you do. We will indeed see what took place, whether crime was sparse and mild or whether it serious enough for the national guard to be sent in with shoot to kill orders. I'll be here. Oh, one more thing now that we're done...kindly go fukk yourself. Is THAT treading lightly enough for ya, tough guy? Wanna come see me? I'll post my address for ya. Lol, it must have taken you a good 10 minutes to come up with that one huh... Lol, do you get frustrated easily? edit: Tim, is there anything we can do about quoting?

I was speaking about perceptions and you know it. Did I say that you weren't speaking about perceptions? Don't shy away from the point. The fact remains that you were the one to introduce race to the discussion of crime and violence and you are well aware of this. Your initial argument wasn't about mass hysteria or citizens spreading rumors. It was about how people are more likely to believe these stories because those involved are black. You went on in another post to say that there was "not ONE" first person statement about crime, further trying to prove you point that people were relying on their racist perceptions. It turns out that there are SEVERAL first hand statements... Obviously wrong, and quickly covering up, you went on to try to discredit them, going so far as citing mass hysteria. I don't have to tell you how ridiculous and illogical that is. You should already know. Before you post anything in response to this, think about it, go back to your previous posts if you have to. I don't want to have to come back to this. And I agreed with you. What you refuse to admit is that the white community would have perceived it in a racial context as well, albeit likely one that was different than that of the black community.. No, you didn't simply agree with me. You added something that I didn't say and I had to correct you. The point of the example is that even though there may be no true racial issue in a given scenario, it can be quickly manufactured, whether black or white. This is what we have in New Orleans with the slow relief response. A slow response, which lacked any racial motivation, was given one. One would think that the mistakes and the incompetence leading to the slow response would be reason enough for the slow response, but ontop of that, those downing in their own racist perceptions chose to attatch racism to this... not because there was really any racism, but simply because blacks were involved. Instead of speaking about the racism that ultimately led these victims to poverty and helplessness, a few focused on the non-existant racism in the slow relief effort itself. Because your perceptions are racist does not make YOU a racist, this has been my point from the beginning. you are obviously saying that I have a racial or racist viewpoint, which is belittling, insulting, and completely non-evident in anything and everything that I have written so far And yet you persist with the hypocrisy... you say are offended and insulted when you falsely assume that I accuse you of having a racist viewpoint, but then you turn around and say the very same thing to me. And then you post something totally different from the point of my post. I'll say it again. Don't be a hypocrite. I believed these stories as well at first, but became increasingly skeptical as I observed none of it, and no evidence of it was forthcoming. I would be just as skeptical regardless of the races involved. You've conveniently forgotten. I posted an article as well as a link concerning the arrest of someone suspected of shooting at a rescue helicopter. I also posted the article from the New Orleans paper of the bodies found in the Convention Center. I also posted an article about a reporter's first hand account. It wasn't very sunny. Posted police confirmation of police officers having been shot at, and one was actually shot in the head. Navy contractors have been shot at. I posted that as well. I posted a doctor's first hand accound of how things were. It's not that there isn't evidence or information. You're just highly dismisive of it. I DOUBT them...severely. So you doubt the citizens and rescue workers "severely"... So you think that these victims may be lying in large numbers, all over New Orleans... I see. So, we got lucky, and only a few Americans died. This time. Sometimes we have lucked out, sometimes we haven't. Doesn't change how I feel about it. And the govenment could have attempted the alternative and had a lot more Americans die in this specific tradegy, including a few national guard troops. "They got lucky" is one of the most famously used phrases when someone has been shown to be wrong. I've already pointed it out to you, but your mind is closed to it. No, you actually haven't. You've claimed it, but you've made no logical argument to support it. In the arguments you have made, you've made it clear that you are decidedly one sided on the matter, going as far as to ignore incorrect statements that you have made. You need to reexamine who's mind is truly closed. What kind of pizza?

No, that is NOT the way that my mind works, though I'm starting to suspect that maybe it's the way that YOURS does. My reason for DOUBTING these stories has NOTHING to do with ANYBODY'S skin color, it has to do with an almost COMPLETE lack of collaborating EVIDENCE!!! I deal in FACTS!!! Now, you tell me, what are your reasons for BELIEVING them? I'll post what you said again. Now I'm specifically posting what you said, not what I think you may have thought or what I think you may have wanted to say. BUT, these people were overwhelmingly black. So, it is easy to believe all of these horrible rumors about what was going on... In another post, you said Yet, the racist perceptions of much of our nation, including many many blacks, somehow managed to morph them together as if they were one and the same. We seemed to believe that these crimes were committed by those who were suffering, instead of by criminals who were adding to their suffering. In fact, it seemed that the very blackness of many of the victims was at fault. Black people don't listen to warnings so they deserve to be stuck there. Black people shoot at rescue workers so they deserve to be left there. Black people loot whenever they get a chance so they deserve no provisions. You brought the issue of race into this discussion about violence and disorder in New Orleans. This was your initial argument... "these people were overwhelmingly black. So, it is easy to believe all of these horrible rumors about what was going on." My position was and still is that regardless of the race of those involved in crimes and lawlessness, order had to be established to help those who so desperately needed help. You made it race specific. The natural question to ask then is what if white people were the ones we were looking at? Would you then say that your statements would have been... BUT, these people were overwhelmingly white. So, it is easy to believe all of these horrible rumors about what was going on... The underlying current of your argument has as much to do with race as it has to do with "facts." You're absolutely right, and if the shooter had been black, the white community would've thought either the same thing, or that it had been a racially motivated robbery. So, what's your point? Edit: After re-reading this I realized that the shooter must have been a police officer, which changes the circumstances. So, you're saying that if it was the 1 black student amongst all of these white ones the black community would have suspected race played a part, which is correct. However, if it was one white student amongst mostly black ones, the white community would have thought that he was probably shot by mistake, or that the poor kid had fallen under the influence of these black kids, or that he deserved what he got for running with the black students in the first place. No, that's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that if it was a black person shot by a white person, period, the black community would have perceived it as racism, whether the person shot was surrounded by whites, blacks, asians, or latinos, even in the absence of any evidence of racism. The color of the officer's skin would have been motive enough. Officials called on Boston University to suspend students of the school who took part in the riot. The majority of students that took part in the riot were white. If the majority of students that had taken part in the riots were black, the black community would have looked upon the call for suspensions as harsh and prejudiced. You're absolutely right, and the white community would have complained that they weren't harsh enough, and there would have been calls for more security and an increase in weapons bought in the area. So, what's your point? Funny how many whites said the same things concerning these white students. Many of those students were kicked out of school, and those who were found committing serious crimes got jail time, the harsher penalties that were called for. A few years ago, the party hours at Harvard University were cut back. Residents in the community claimed that music was often too loud and that students were often loud, drunk, and disorderly late at night. Upon receiving word, the initial perception of the situation in the black community was that this had something to do with race... that was until they found out that all school organizations that threw parties were affected. And what was the initial perception in the white community? Link please. There was no racial perception in the white and asian communities. No one liked it. Students complained. The reduction still stands. So yes, perhaps you understand that racism is imbedded in the American psyche, but what you seem not to understand is that it effects ALL Americans! If you did then you would realize how it even now effects YOU! For here you are now, insisting on believing that these heinous crimes happened to the degree and scale that was reported, regardless of the gross absence of evidence, regardless of the words of the Police Superintendent, regardless of your own common sense. Even if this evidence was to somehow miraculously appear now it would not change the fact that you gave into your racist perceptions in the absence of that evidence, it would only make you feel vindicated in your prejudice. Earlier you posted the following... you are obviously saying that I have a racial or racist viewpoint, which is belittling, insulting, and completely non-evident in anything and everything that I have written so far Though I honestly said nothing of the kind. Now you have charged me with having "racist perceptions" and basically a racist viewpoint on these matters. The hypocrisy in your statements is evident, but I'll give you some leeway. I'm sure you simply used stronger words than you meant to. I hope this is truly the case. Any charge with the word "racist" in it is very serious. Tone down your rhetoric. The reason that I believe that there was a great deal of crime has nothing to do with the race of those involved, absolutely nothing at all. You are woefully off base. I can't stress that enough. If those effected by the hurricane where mostly white, hispanic, or asian and the same things were being reported in the same volume as they are now, my honest response would be the same. The National Guard would need to be sent in to restore order with shoot to kill orders if the situation were the same. The problem in this case is that the reports are numerous as are the sources. Reporters, doctors, rescue workers, police and city officials have all reported quite a bit of crime. The real issue however is that citizens of New Orleans themselves have reported that there has been a lot of crime. Now you've attributed that to mass hysteria, but you're reaching, and you know it, whether you admit it or not. Are these black citizens trying to demonize other black citizens? People have reported that rescue helicopters were shot at. One person has been arrested so far. Was the press attempting to demonize blacks by reporting the shootings? Even in the face of numerous reports from numerous sources, am I to ignore what those on the ground are saying because it doesn't sound good or because I don't want to believe it? You go on to say this... Even if this evidence was to somehow miraculously appear now it would not change the fact that you gave into your racist perceptions in the absence of that evidence, it would only make you feel vindicated in your prejudice. It seems that you have already decided that much of the crime that the press, even the New Orleans press, and citizens have reported hasn't really happened. Your use of the phrase "miraculously appear" bears witness. Is it so unlikely that some of these things have happened that it would take a miracle for evidence to appear? You have bent over so far in the other direction that you discount things that are well documented. And then you go on to say that I am prejudiced because I believe what citizens are saying? Again, it has nothing to do with race for me. It has everything to do with what these people are saying and the preponderance of the claims and reports in general. They say that they are hungry and thirsty, and that they are being mistreated by troops... I will believe them. Why then shouldn't I believe them when they say crime has taken place? Because the police superintendent who has lost much of his police force has said that they haven't found evidence yet, even though bodies have been reportedly found in both the convention center and the superdome? This has nothing to do with race for me, and in going so far as to address my "prejuduce," you are way out of line. Tread lightly. I don't believe in shoot to kill orders when it comes down to dealing with problems in this country. The net result is usually dead Americans. The average peace officer or member of the military knows fully well when and how to kill anyway, and demonstrate their abilities often. "Shoot To Kill" orders are usually translated by those that are given them to mean "shoot now, ask questions later". No, the net result is usually stability. Think the worst, but this was proven in New Orleans. Troops weren't shooting people stealing bread. They weren't shooting people indiscrimintately as some want to think. They went in with shoot to kill orders and were still shot at. How much more bold would criminals have been if they believed that the national guard would have been passive? The severity of the situation, both the crimes taking place and more importantly, the need to help those who were suffering, called for the decision. So yes, much of the media coverage of this tragedy was racist, much of the response to it was racist, and much of OUR reaction to the entire episode was racist, and it was all brought about not by any person or persons, but by OUR racist American perceptions. How was the media coverage racist? How was the response, both from the American people and the govenment racist? False or vague blanket statements declared in certainty are still false or vague.

Yes it is! I showed my friend Mady those posts and she was like "I feel so offended!" and I was like "He's just some Dutch kid from the Netherlands, he doesn't know any better" :lolsign: :sipread:

Lol, it's going to be very interesting to actually see this movie.

So getting back to the reason that we are talking about violence and crime... does it stink enough that the govenor of Louisiana shouldn't have given her shoot to kill orders. This is where this whole debate about crime originated. We've gone far and wide, but we come back to the main question...

I haven't said that you have a racist viewpoint nor have I tried to hint or allude to it. I am saying that you have been decidedly one sided on these matters. I posted a "first person statement" of which you said "not ONE" existed. Choosing to ignore the fact that it was indeed a first person statement, you said in response... As if everyone in New Orleans has only one shirt and has been wading in filth with that one shirt for days. You also tried to explain away the person's use of first person pronous by saying that he could have been repeating something a colleague related to him. You say that there are no "first person statements," you get one, and then you try to explain it away, along with others? And then you ask me if I'm just trying to win an argument? Earlier, you said... But in this account, the shooter's race wasn't even mentioned. There are no racial overtones in this person's story. We are only left with the notion that someone shot at innocent people. Now if he was white, maybe that would have changed your view on this story that this and other crimes were just rumors that were easy to believe because blacks were involved. If the person were white, you couldn't claim this. Concerning race in the American psyche... Let me make myself crystal clear. Last year, during a riot on the night the Red Sox clinched the pennant, a college age student was shot in the eye with a pellet containing tear gas. The student died. No one else was shot. No one else was killed. The student was white. If the student had been black, the black community's perception would have been that racism or race played some part. Officials called on Boston University to suspend students of the school who took part in the riot. The majority of students that took part in the riot were white. If the majority of students that had taken part in the riots were black, the black community would have looked upon the call for suspensions as harsh and prejudiced. A few years ago, the party hours at Harvard University were cut back. Residents in the community claimed that music was often too loud and that students were often loud, drunk, and disorderly late at night. Upon receiving word, the initial perception of the situation in the black community was that this had something to do with race... that was until they found out that all school organizations that threw parties were affected. Race would have had nothing and had nothing to do with these situations whether whites or blacks were involved, but that's not the way the black community would perceive it. What is my point? You are correct in saying that ideas of race and racism are imbedded in the American psyche and that racism can exist without racist. You arrogantly claimed that I couldn't "wrap my head around the concept" even though I previously agreed with the concept that this matter deals mainly with perception. Thank you for your kind words. But this is the point I made. While racism is so deeply imbedded in the American psyche that it can exist without racists, it can also exist without racism itself in any form whatsoever. Perceptions of racism can exist where there are no racists, where there is no racism or prejudice, conscious or subconscious, no alterior motives... They can exist when a situation has absolutely nothing to do with racism at all as in the examples above. All it takes is for whites and blacks to be involved and for blacks to be affected negatively. Oftentimes, all it takes if for whites and blacks to be involved, period.

Jonny.... lol, That's a crazy job. I'm with Julie on the animal cruelty though... Whatever happened to shooting skeet?

Well the only reason they held her was because she was the lightest... she's kinda short :lolsign: :lolsign: Great pictures

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/in..._06.html#077479 http://www.nola.com/t-p/ - Times-Picayune Archive http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/n..._nm/notebook_dc http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/9/6/213759/1319. I think I've made my point on these issues. I won't continue. I don't wish to get into semantics, so I'll leave it at that. My goal is neither to "win an argument" nor to belitte anyone. It is to discuss opinions, come to agreement when agreement is present and to discuss differences where there are differences. If my goal were to simply win an argument, I would have stopped posting on this thread out of exasperation 22 pages ago.

Miami has a great team. They will do well, they have great players on their team. However, there is the chemistry issue and Shaq's health. Also, the east has gotten a lot better. The Cavs, Wizards, Bucks, Indi, Detroit, Chicago, Philly, NJ... It's not going to be a cake walk for Miami. Truthfully, I can't see anyone beating the Spurs unless there's a meltdown. Parker, Duncan, Ginobli, Bowen, Barry, Mohammed, Horry, Finley, Van Excel, and then 4 or 5 other scrubs... What's worse, they have most of the players from last years championship back. Most players know the plays. Miami doesn't have that.

I'm with TopDawg on this one.

That Chris Tucker face was hilarious. Not sure it can quite compare to Mike Meyer's face... I thought he was going to faint. But yea, on the subject... It wasn't a good look for Kanye in the conscious rapper department. Of course people will agree with him. It's their prerogative, but more than the irresponsible message... the time and place he chose to voice it is most irking.

Before I address your post... earlier, you noted that in the news reports, among other things, "not ONE is first person." I went on to supply you with a number of quotes from people on the ground in New Orleans. You may either want to clarify the "not ONE is first person" statement or retract it. You've seemed to side step that and have gone on to attack the credibility of those who were quoted, such as you did with the "guy with a white shirt" incident or citing "mass hystyeria". Unfortunately, you can't attack the individual's credibility and at the same time maintain that the statement isn't made in "first person." Moving along... These are from the Times Picayune... the New Orleans Newspaper... Arkansas National Guardsman Mikel Brooks stepped through the food service entrance of the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center Monday, flipped on the light at the end of his machine gun, and started pointing out bodies. "Don't step in that blood - it's contaminated," he said. "That one with his arm sticking up in the air, he's an old man." Then he shined the light on the smaller human figure under the white sheet next to the elderly man. "That's a kid," he said. "There's another one in the freezer, a 7-year-old with her throat cut." He moved on, walking quickly through the darkness, pulling his camouflage shirt to his face to screen out the overwhelming odor. "There's an old woman," he said, pointing to a wheelchair covered by a sheet. "I escorted her in myself. And that old man got bludgeoned to death," he said of the body lying on the floor next to the wheelchair. I just want to point out what the "dailykos" website said... It turns out that the Convention Center was NOT overrun by armed gangs. It turns out that a 7 year old child was NOT raped and had her throat cut. Turns out that most of the rumor and innuendo about the Superdome and Convention Center descending into savagery was just that apparently intended to demonize the victims of this national disaster, who were poor and black and you know that those big buck negros just wanna rape and kill 7 year old children, right? Now, they haven't said that these things are unproven or are still under investigation as your other quotes have. They said, very clearly, and repeatedly, that they did NOT happen. Now it's one thing to say that something hasn't been substantiated, but it's certainly something entirely different to say that these things have NOT happened at all. Seems like an attempy to demonize the media more than anything else... This site seems about as fair and balanced as Fox News. Here's another Federal officials make first arrest By Gwen Filosa Staff writer Federal agents arrested a young Algiers man in the early Tuesday morning after agents said he shot at a military helicopter designed for rescue missions, U.S. Attorney Jim Letten said. The arrest Tuesday marked the first federal action against the lawlessness that preyed upon New Orleans in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. Wendell L. Bailey, 20, was arrested outside the building in which he had earlier taken aim with a .22-caliber handgun and fired at the helicopter that was flying in the darkness, federal prosecutors said. A criminal complaint filed against Bailey Tuesday accuses him of the federal crime of trying to "damage and destroy any aircraft and with being a felon in possession of a handgun. If convicted on both charges, Bailey could be sentenced to 30 years in prison. Letten held Bailey's case up as the first federal arrest and promised more would come. "He will be prosecuted very aggressively, federally," Letten said at the Emergency Operations Center in Baton Rouge, flanked by U.S. Attorney David Dugas of Baton Rouge and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives officials. U.S. District Judge Sarah Vance, of the eastern district, signed the arrest warrant. Bailey was booked at the temporary detention center set up by state officials in the storm-torn downtown of New Orleans, and is due in federal court located in Baton Rouge federal court later today. Special ATF agents were patrolling Algiers when they observed gunfire coming from an apartment window. Two young men then walked out of the building and were heard chatting about shooting at a helicopter. "They won't be back now," one of them said, according to an affidavit filed in U.S. District Court on Tuesday. Inside the apartment, ATF special agents found a .22-caliber Rhomn revolver and a .32-caliber Smith & Wesson revolver both hidden beneath a mattress – along with a box of 9-mm ammunition. Letten said that under federal law, Bailey's home address cannot be released. He said he did not have the specific address at which ATF nabbed Bailey. The second young man who was with Bailey was not arrested after ATF agents interviewed the unidentified man. Bailey has prior convictions for dealing marijuana and cocaine, Letten said. He admitted to ATF agents at the scene that he was a felon on probation and he told them were the firearms were, Letten's office said. At the time of the shooting, Letten said a number of civil and military aircraft were in the air helping with evacuation, search and rescue and delivering supplies. State Attorney General Charles Foti Jr., the former criminal sheriff in Orleans Parish, plans to open up a second detention center in New Orleans, likely using an existing facility that was built to be a jail, Letten said. And another.... Reuters' Denver-based photographer Rick Wilking arrived in New Orleans two days before Hurricane Katrina hit and stayed in the greater New Orleans area for six days. The following is his personal account of the storm and its violent aftermath. By Rick Wilking NEW ORLEANS (Reuters) - It was dawn when he showed up out of nowhere. "Hey man, there's a ton of media up here and they have a lot of stuff. I don't see any cops. There's no security." The man in ragged clothes summoned his friends to attempt a "hit" on a convoy of a dozen media cars parked on the highway overpass near the New Orleans Superdome, three days after Hurricane Katrina hit. Fortunately for us the conversation was overheard. As soon as we saw a mob making its way toward us and just as a network anchor was about to go live for a morning show, the word went down the line. Before you knew it, the lights were struck, the wires tossed into trucks, the satellite dishes stowed, and photographers and reporters were speeding the wrong way down the interstate to the relative safety of a police checkpoint. When we got there the police told us there had been nearly 80 carjackings in the last few days, many of them media vehicles surrounded by mobs and stripped clean or stolen outright, sometimes at gunpoint. They also told us a policeman had been shot in the head (he lived) and so they had a new "shoot to kill" policy in place. I've covered dozens of natural disasters around the globe, from mudslides and floods in Europe to hurricanes and tornadoes in the United States. I always considered the assignments somewhat dangerous but not extremely so, because if you know what you are doing you can easily minimize the danger -- actually control your situation. Not so in New Orleans, where after one day of covering a storm and its aftermath I found myself covering a human tragedy of enormous proportions, compounded by a blatant criminal element bent on taking advantage of a very bad situation. Looting is almost always found in the initial hours after a storm -- particularly if the area hit is a poorer neighborhood. But armed gangs riding in pick-up trucks, shots being fired from the ground at military rescue helicopters overhead and media vehicles being hijacked are not things you expect. Covering flooded New Orleans was hard enough with many major roads under water, no power and no phones, not even cellular, without having to watch your back at every turn. All these people are making up things? Reporters are suffering from mass hysteria? Police officers and the National Guard. Really... Lets not forget, the point of the topic of violence and crimes taking place in New Orleans is to establish that Blanco was right in sending troops in with shoot to kill orders to restore order. Also, you made this statement... I'm guessing that the person in the white shirt had to be wading in the water with that same shirt for the duration of the disaster huh. I'm guessing that he was in the open in the water with a white shirt shooting at people so that he in turn could be easily shot. On top of all of it, you've alread tried to cast doubt on his story saying maybe he's just repeating what was told to him inspite of the fact that he repeatedly used the pronouns "we" and "us" when speaking about the event signifying that he was involved. "We were coming in from a parking deck at Tulane Medical Center, and a guy in a white shirt started firing at us." "We got back to Charity Hospital with with food from Tulane and we said, 'OK the snipers are behind us." "We started loading patients [for transport] and 20 minutes later, shots rang out." Sad atttempt... and the shooter could have been white. Maybe that would have changed your view on the story.

Cool, a post off... here's another excerpt from this very article. The truth, whatever it may be, is clearly horrific enough, with just about every eyewitness account from New Orleans mentioning the palpable menace from crazed gangs of looters and ne'er-do-wells, especially after nightfall. Compass himself told reporters on Thursday that 88 of his cops were beaten back into a retreat by angry Convention Center refugees, forcing Mayor Ray Nagin to suspend rescue operations in favor of restoring a semblance of order. Another account. "We had three murders last night. We had a total of six rapes last night. We had the day before, I think, there were three or four murders. There were half-a-dozen rapes that night. We had one suicide last night. We had one military policeman shot." Dr. Burnell described the Superdome situation as "very unstable, very high tension, a very dangerous environment." While National Guardsmen were on hand for protection, he said that "every time there was an incident that broke out, they had to tend to that, which left us uncovered." Burnell said the task of treating people inside the stadium became impossible after they ran out of supplies. "We did not have oxygen, we did not have any medications to speak of," he said.

Well my parents had a small vending machine business sometime back, so I wouldd go with either or both of them to fill these machines once every week or so. It wasn't necessarily a weird or crazy job, but it is somewhat unconventional. You'd be surprised how much these vending companies mark up the prices of snacks and drinks... I also worked in a pathology/histology lab at Boston Medical. Basically, we'd recieve tissue samples from various departments of the hospital: biopsies from surgeries, samples from autopsies and a few samples from the dental school daily. After a number of steps, the result would be a stained slide with a very thin slice of tissue. Residents and doctors who worked with us would spend several hours every evening looking at the slides under microscopes and making diagnoses based on the tissue abnormalities. The cool and sort of weird part is that I got to sit in on autopsies and aided in doing some. We'd talk about lunch and stuff while we were splitting dead people's rib cages and cleaning out their bowels, and we'd usually be half serious. It was definitely fun. Some of the weirder things came from the dental school. You'd be surprised the sort of things people allow to grow in their mouths before they go to see a dentist or a doctor. Usually, I'd be by myself cutting the samples to proper sizes for slides, so it wasn't the most pleasant part of the day. This past summer, I worked at a Visiting Nurse Agency installing vital sign monitors in patients homes and setting up a website for the agency. I can add more, but all I'll say for now is that old people love to talk.

What's the craziest job you've ever had. Something you look back on and are just like, wow, I can't believe I did that. I have mine, and I'll share later. Just want to hear from you guys.

And this is exactly why I don't post pictures on the internet, lol. Lol, I was thinking about making a Roy Jones, "Ya'll Must've Forgot" about the arcade.

That's exactly what I expected you to say, except for the "not ONE is first person" point you made. You may want to edit out the "not ONE is first person" statement. Police Chief Eddie Compass said he sent in 88 officers to quell the situation at the building, but they were quickly driven back by an angry mob. "We have individuals who are getting raped, we have individuals who are getting beaten," Compass said. "Tourists are walking in that direction and they are getting preyed upon." -------------------------- "Please don't send the National Guard," Raymond Cooper told CNN by telephone. "Send someone with a bullhorn outside the place that can talk to these people first." He described scenes of lawlessness and desperation, with people simply dragging corpses into corners. "They have quite a few people running around here with guns," he said. "You got these young teenage boys running around up here raping these girls." --------------------------- "We were coming in from a parking deck at Tulane Medical Center, and a guy in a white shirt started firing at us," Curiel said. "The National Guard [troops], wearing flak jackets, tried to get a bead on this guy... We got back to Charity Hospital with with food from Tulane and we said, 'OK the snipers are behind us, let's move on,' " Curiel said. "We started loading patients [for transport] and 20 minutes later, shots rang out." ---------------------------- A member of that family, Africa Brumfield, 32, confirmed the incident but declined to be quoted about it, saying her family did not wish to discuss it. But she spoke of general conditions here. "There is rapes going on here. Women cannot go to the bathroom without men. They are raping them and slitting their throats. They keep telling us the buses are coming but they never leave," she said through tears. I'm not sure whether you're simply playing devil's advocate, or whether you're genuinely trying to intimate that the violence and disorder in New Orleans wasn't really that bad; that the media was just sensationalizing the stories and people who were in the area suffering were making a lot of these things up... the few police officers who were left were simply spreading rumors... Are you saying that these numerous accounts from different sources can't be trusted? Seems like the govenor of Louisiana believed them enough to send in troops. Seems like the mayor of New Orleans believed them enough to remove police officers from search and rescue operations to focus on curtailing crime. A day after Nagin took 1,500 police officers off search-and-rescue duty to try to restore order in the streets, there were continued reports of looting, shootings, gunfire and carjackings. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-0...htm?POE=NEWISVA Unsubstantiated... rumors... They certainly seemed real to the people involved, not just the media. I don't believe that I've ever said on this forum or any other that because of the crimes, these people should have been left to suffer. Anyone who says something like this is nothing short of prejudice and lacks compassion. Also, we've already established that the govenment was excruciatingly slow in their response to this disaster. I don't think this is in question. There was so much disorder, it's appalling. We have not established that racism or the race of the people of New Orleans had anything to do with the slow response however. For the numerous "if these were white people assertions," no one knows how the response to this disaster would have unfolded. The mass incompetence demonstarted throughout this disaster goes far beyond race. Following the same "what if" logic, what if the mayor of New Orleans were white but his actions were exactly the same. Honestly, how would blacks respond to him. Would they think that race had something to do with his poor decision making prior to the storm? What if the majority of police officers in New Orleans had been white? Would the decision for them to put off search and rescue efforts to restore order have been questioned by civil rights leaders? Wouldn't race come into play? Lets be honest, as I said before, when blacks and whites are involved and blacks are affected negatively, race will always come into question, even if it has absolutely nothing to do with the situation. The cry will always be "well if whites were the ones affected." It's not just perception. It's perception fueled by bias, and it goes both ways. It's also easy to not want to believe that crimes are being committed. Unfortunately, that doesn't change the situation there. It doesn't change what the police officers have said, what those who are suffering have said and what the media has reported that they have said. It doesn't change the mayor's actions, nor the govenor's in putting some focus on reestablishing order. Now are all these people lying to you or do you just choose to ignore them? Here's an excerpt of the "Army Corps of Engineers" incident. Something tells me that if you could say that it didn't happen at all, you would. According to New Orleans Deputy Police Chief W. J. Riley, on September 4 police shot and killed five or six people walking on the Danziger Bridge. Initial reports said that the victims were Army Corps of Engineers contractors on their way to launch barges involved in the 17th Street Canal repair. Shortly afterwards, the initial report was retracted, and it was reported that the men shot by police were gunmen who had opened fire on the contractors. The Army Corps of Engineers also confirmed that its contractors were not killed by police, but gunmen who fired at them were killed. Original reports claim five killed, but later police confirm only two killed, two wounded and two arrested. And the conclusion that the objective mind should come to when all the facts and viable evidence is investigated is that racism didn't have anything to do with the disaster response and that the govenment is simply but severely incompetent. Incidentally, the "viable evidence within the situation" is that whites and blacks are involved and blacks were affected negatively, so racism must be somewhere in the equation.

I think you're right, it is mainly perception, and that's understandable. At the same time, when blacks and whites are involved, and blacks are negatively affected, the perception will usually have something to do with racism, even if there is none involved. As a result, I'm not surprised that many would charge the government with such given how things have gone in NO. Does it seem that racism could have played a part in the slow response? Yes. If you look at the end result, black people were suffering and the government was slow to help. Unfortunately, people stopped there and almost refused to acknowledge the reasons for the slow response. I'm glad the issue of race is involved in this discussion. It is clear that it definitely had something to do with the poverty in NO before the disaster, and resulted in many people not being able to evacuate. Hopefully, this will be addressed. As for the government response, it's something that will be left to perception as you've said, based on how individuals and groups see it. I've posted how I think the media has handled this, but this really drew my attention... the absolute avalanche of UNSUBSTANTIATED rumors of wide-spread violence and atrocities Atrocities may be a strong word... but... http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.impact/ http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katr...iper/index.html http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900S...CZ?OpenDocument http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?...3466&n=10063508 http://uk.news.yahoo.com/02092005/325/troo...t-violence.html

Lol, I was like, mini Potna? What are you guys talking abo... Oh.....

I think the whole issue boils down to whether people truly think racism was the primary cause of the slow response, whether they believe that the government simply failed in doing what they were supposed to do, or whether it is a mixture of both. No, the Government often doesn't "think" when it comes to poor blacks, yet at the same time, all the "evidence" that you say points to this being the case here is again based on how someone chooses to perceive the situation. Is racism the enemy, or is it bureaucracy. Is it that the govenment neglected poor blacks, whether consciously or subconsciously, or was their slow response due to disorder and miscommunicaton. Or was it both. The problem is that we have evidence of govenment errors and we have evidence that these led to the neglect we saw in the first few days after the hurricane and the flooding. However, we see the neglect, we see black people suffering, and we say it must be racism. The situation isn't that black and white.

Lol, well since you guys asked so nicely.