MaxFly

The problem with that is that we're finding out that the mayor had plenty of resources to evacuate people from NO before the city flooded. There are hundreds of school buses and transportation buses under water in New Orlenes that some have pointed out could have evacuated thousands of people before the flood and before the hurricane. It is estimated that most of the people who have died in NO died because they drowned in the flood. Earlier, Ted posted, rather irately, that the federal government did nothing to evacuate those in NO. Well I hope he understands that evacuation in the face of a natural disaster is the responsibility of the local government and I hope he's just as irate with the mayor of NO. It's not just that the mayor didn't order the evacuation of all people. He did it late and he didn't seek to enforce the evacuation nor did he utilize the resources he had to evacuate those that he could. Again, there are hundreds of transportation vehicles under water in NO. Why weren't those used to evacuate people? Why didn't the govenor urge him to do these things? What's worse, the local government of Louisiana seemed to have no contingency plans for a natural disaster and they seemed to be totally caught unawares. It is the responsibility of the mayors of city and towns and the govenor of a state to set in place protocols to prepare their city for an approaching natural disaster. Along with the Bush Administration and FEMA, they need to be held accountable for their slowness before and after the storm. The govenor of Louisiana wouldn't allow the federal govenment to take over. She wanted to maintain control over the national guard. She can do this because she is an elected official of her state. Bureaucracy, and that will need to be looked at when everything is said and done. Also, she was the one who ordered the "shoot to kill." The order would have been exactly the same with martial law, and we already know how Kanye feels about those orders, so I don't see Kanye embracing martial law either. Where has he said that things are fine and where has he said that he didn't do anything wrong? This isn't Iraq. I don't think that even he is that stupid. He has said that people are not getting the help they need and that the initial response was unacceptable. That doesn't sound like he's saying things are "fine." He should have come sooner, and I hope they hold him to full accountability for this. He did the same thing with 9/11, not responding right away. It's getting old. Hopefully, he doesn't squirm out of it this time. If this were true, FEMA would have no blame in the matter. Yet everyone is blaming FEMA. Why do you think that is? Here is a picture of the resources that the mayor of NO didn't have...

Lance Johnson? You mean Lance Armstrong. Lance Armstrong was brought into the debate because someone earlier tried to insult the president by intimating that he is an idiot because he fell off his bike. Now the President isn't the smarterst man in the world, but everyone falls off their bike now and then. Lance Armstrong has fallen off his bike several times, and he's a 7 time Tour de France champion. The point was that if you're going to insult the president, pick better things to insult him with. Talk about Iraq, WMDs, not the man falling off his bike.

Lol, exactly...

Lol, you haven't gotten used to it yet? :sipread:

Lol, what country are you from bea? Answer truthfully.

I think some of you guys are under the impression that this was just petty crime and shoot to kill orders are too strident. Lets clarify. Here's a short quote from ABC. Thousands of troops have struggled to counter armed looters and help tens of thousands of refugees flee New Orleans, where chaos reigns three days after Hurricane Katrina. Here is what the black mayor of Louisiana did... The lawlessness distracted from frantic efforts to evacuate the city, where Nagin took hundreds of exhausted police off search and rescue duties to fight the looting gangs. Does someone want to say that the mayor was motivated by race to go after these looters? Here's another quote... There were reports of gunbattles and rapes with gangs of looters and carjackers roaming in the streets and bodies lying by the roadside. Some helicopters bringing relief supplies were shot at and arsonists set fire to some of the few buildings still standing in the city. I just want to clarify that these weren't isolated incidents... One shooting here... one raping there... This was widespead. So when the governor of Louisiana (not the federal government) gives shoot to kill orders, I don't think she's being whimsical. Also, you asked why Kanye would need to balance what he said on air. He mentions that troops are being sent to shoot black people. Does he mention why troops have been given shoot to kill orders. This is where the bias becomes glaring. In the face of the arson, looting, raping and general unrest in the city, his beef is with the fact that troops are being sent in to regain order, even if they have to use force. He doesn't have any beef with those who are hindering relief efforts. The mayor of New Orlenes made mistakes. He too, like the federal government, was slow to act. He failed to evacuate much of his city. As a result, many people drowned in their homes. The mayor of New Orlenes is black. What are the racial connotations of his failure to act quickly?

why does the governor control the NATIONAL guard tho? :shrug: if the governor isnt doing his job why doesnt the federal government just step in and take over? :stickpoke: ← The Federal government can't do that. The governor is an elected official of that state. As a result, the government cannot seize power from her. The govenor has to sign over her authority before the federal government can take over. The national guard would be under the control of the governor until she signs over her authority. Gotta love bureaucracy.

I believe this is true. Unfortunately, troops need to be sent to deal with these people. You are right. People do need to know that the national guard is there to help, however I see the troops response as a warning, not a threat. Their behavior so far attests to that. I have to ask. Since the mayor has some degree of accountability in all of this, and Kanye is charging the government with racism, is he then charging the mayor with racism?

:word: This is an embarassment for America bottomline 'cause we gotta put these money and resources to use that we have since we're a powerful country, no matter who you blame it all starts with the Bush administration 'cause they got the most power and there's no exuse about that, they're making us look weak, I got nomore to say about this 'cause words can't describe how frustrating this is. ← I get to answer both of you at the same time... Frenetic: Manpower and resources are abundant. Again, the government was slow in acting, not overwhelmed. No one is accusing FEMA and the department of homeland security as a whole of not having the resources to do their jobs. They are being accused of not acting quickly and not doing enough in the initial days. If the department of homeland security did not have the resources they needed, people wouldn't be calling for all of the directors within FEMA to be fired. They'd be questioning why they don't have the resources they need to do their jobs. Ted: The most visible person to blame isn't necessarily where the buck stops. You can't ignore other facets of the government that need to be held accountable such as the mayor and govenor of Louisiana. Lets get all the information so that we can hold each facet to the level of accountability that it deserves.

I doubt that anyone will be escaping this time... People are calling for blood, and the media has gotten over its shyness with Iraq. Congress is already gearing up. Someone's going to answer for this. This isn't about blame, this is about accountability and someone will be held accountable. What would make me happy is if Kanye did his research and understood the situation fully before he opens his mouth. If this was Will, it would be the same thing. Common, it would be the same thing. When he made it a race thing, he went off base, especially in the time and place he chose to voice his "facts." Can you please provide me with the quotes where white people are ctiticizing Bush for sending in troops to shoot black people? General criticism seems focused on the slowness of the government's response, not racism or discrimination. Ted, I don't have to twist Kanye's words to make him sound ignorant. He did that all by himself. He said that the government is sending in troops to shoot black people. I don't even have to explain why that is ignorant, especially looking at the way these troops have behaved. I don't know how far behind you are on the news, but we're not longer waiting. Criticism is that the govenment didn't do enough in the first 2 days, not that they are not doing enough now. Don't provide excuses for people doing stupid and ignorant things. You make it seem that what they are doing and have done isn't that important because they have just reason to behave they way they are behaving. It's one thing to be mad. It's another thing to act illegally out of that anger. Do you think those people who were shooting at the navy contractors we justified because of their "anger." They're finally moving now because that's their job; it's what they should have been doing from the beginning.

This is where you're missing what I'm saying. You're thinking money, I'm talking about resources, manpower and aid from other agencies within the department of homeland security; these are the things that more than make up for FEMA's budget cuts and were looked at when FEMA's budget was cut. They are able to call on other agencies within the department of homeland security for aid and are able to work with these agencies closely, taking the lead and addressing various aspects of a disaster or an emergency response situation that needs to be addressed. If Michael Chertoff tells an agency to lend a hand to FEMA, they are going to lend that hand. They don't have a choice. In the past, as different agencies, it would have been more of a plea. Under the department of homeland security, it's a mandate. And note, no reasonable budget that FEMA has, had, or will ever have will ever be enough to fully address all of the issues we see in NO. FEMA is responsible for initial response and relief, rescue and search, not the prolonged care of those that have been rescued and saved. The Red Cross has taken on that responsibility This is why you hear people donating money and other countries donating money to the Red Cross, not FEMA. The Red Cross is responsible for feeding those who have lost their homes and livelyhood, for clothing them, and for providing them with prolonged healthcare. FEMA doesn't do that. FEMA has enough money and shared resources to do the job they need to do in NO. They were just slow in doing their job.

Yeah, I think this has been mentioned before, but no one really knows what to make of it.

Homeland security might have gotten more cash, but do you know **** about company and branch budgets? NO, cause when a budget is done, homeland and fema get different budgets. FEMA has gotten less then years before and addiontional money for preventing disasters like this have been declined. Homeland secutiry which is above FEMA has more money, yes, but it does not give it the right to give it's own budget to FEMA, in that case homeland security would be broke at this point cause of the massive damages in Louisiana. FEMA is within homeland security Frenetic. FEMA is an agency within the department of homeland security. FEMA is no longer acting as a separate branch... They were consolidated into the department of homeland security and they are under homeland security now. As a result, if FEMA is unable to adequately handle a situation with their own resources, the department of homeland security is set up so that FEMA would be able to call on any of the other 21 agencies within the department of homeland security for resources. This is something that couldn't have been easily done before the department of homeland security was established largely because bureacracy got in the way and the various agencies were unable to work well together and share information. Also, FEMA's budget wasn't cut because of the Iraq war. If anything, because of the threat of terrorism, FEMA's budget would have been increased. Remember, this is a president that likes to spend, and has yet to cut a single spending bill in his entire time in office. Their budget was cut partly because much of the money was found to be used inefficiently after audits and mainly because they were going to be consolidated into the department of homeland security. Undoubtably, the amount of money that is being spent in mess-o-potamia will affect the budgets of various departments and social programs, but with the way congress is set up, disaster relief would be one of the very last thing to be cut because of Iraq. Congress is to concerned about terrorism and it's aftermath. This is why the department of homeland security was created in the first place.

Is that necessary? Talkin' like that will get you banned, this is supposed to be an intelligent conversation, there's no need to sound that racist, I'm black and I got pride in myself but I also respect other races too as long as they respect me, but f*** the government that doesn't care about us, I agree wit what u said Cozmo D! ← :word: What Ted said... :sipread:

Yes, Georges Bush in inept, but he doesn't seem to be racist. The govenment was stuck on stupid for the whole of 2 days. They will answer for their incompetence as well as the govenor or Louisiana and the mayor of Louisiana. The post was just too much to respond to, but I think I'll address this statement, and perhaps a few of the others at another time. I never said "since these black people are being attacked by black people they shouldn't be rescued" nor is that what I tried to convey, nor is that what I believe. The violence was brought up as a contrast with Kanye's statement that troops are being sent to shoot black people. Troops are being sent to quel the violence and to reestablish order in the city. People are shooting at rescue workers. That is unacceptable. Kanye's statement intimated that troops aren't needed and that they are just being sent down there to shoot and harass black people. That statement is utterly ludicrous given the violence and disorder than is taking place in the city. In hindsight, we can see that violence has decreased and that a certain level of order has been established in the city. Troops have not been needlessly shooting at and harassing black people. I'll leave it to some of you as to what to make of Kanye's statement now...

Frenetic, yours is a fleeting acceptance that some people have done bad things, completely ignoring how these things relate to the crisis in the South. Throughout this entire thread, you have downplayed the importance of order and security in relation to rescue and relief efforts. Kanye said that the govenment is sending troops down to shoot at black people and you agreed. You obviously don't understand why the govenment is sending down troops. When crimes are taking place, not just simple lootings, but lootings of gun shops and the like, shootings, carjackings, rapes and looting of peoples homes for valuables, it is imperative that the govenment reestablish order so that those things don't hinder rescue and relief efforts. I'm sure by now that you have heard of the gunmen who shot at the unarmed navy contractors as they were on their way to fix one of the levees. What do you think would have happened to those engineers if the government had chosen not put some focus on security. Would the NO police department which was hopelessly undermanned before the arrival of troops have been able to help those men and women? What would you say to the families of those civilians. Your son or daughter, mother or father bravely died at the hands of those they were trying to help? They aren't just idiots as you have stated. Their actions are quite simply abominable, nothing less. Shooting at rescue choppers? Their actions aren't taken in desperation but in greed and anger, puting those in danger who would help them and further endangering the lives of some who are already suffering. So when Kanye says that troops are being sent down to shoot black people, he is misrepresenting the entire issue. He is making it into something about race (as if the army is purposefully targeting black people) instead of presenting the full picture. If this were Florida and white people were running around shooting at workers and breaking into peoples homes, best believe that troops would be there in the full effect as well.

There was a report in the Los Angeles Times stating that the government knew that this was a risk, but did nothing. http://news.yahoo.com/s/latimests/20050904...ndleveeprojects Here's an interesting quote: "Since Bush took office in 2001, local experts and Landrieu have asked for just short of $500 million. Altogether, Bush in his yearly budgets asked for $166 million, and Congress approved about $250 million." While I think this is more a case of hindsight being 20/20, it's interesting none-the-less. Earlier you stated that even though FEMA had it's budget cut, the Department of Homeland Security had an increase, causing things to balance out. Could you elaborate on that? That makes no sense to me. Do they now take care of what FEMA used to take care of? If so, why does FEMA still exist? ← FEMA was consolidated into the department of homeland security. While FEMA had it's individual funding cut largely because of this consolidation, they are now able to call on other branches within the department of homeland security in rescue and emergency relief efforts more easily and are able to work with them more intimately. As a result, the resources of other departments become theirs when they are needed. We've seen how well it worked in the beginning of all of this... :therain: But things are picking up. In general, FEMA has lost funds, but they have gained access to more resources and are still adequately funded to address relief efforts.

:word: Cause media has alot of power, why didn't they unite people? =) ← Isn't that what NBC was doing when Kanye chose to open his mouth?

You were on point and I was agreeing with you until you said. 'cause there's black people there, they think we're terrorists Refugee carries a negative connotation and the media should be sensitive to that. But they are actually not using the word wrongly... Refugee: Someone who is voluntarily absent from home or country An individual seeking refuge or asylum An exile who flees for safety

Just to add fuel to the fire. TD Jakes has gone on record as saying that he doesn't believe that the government's slow response to the disaster should be attributed to racism. He said that it's "not that simplistic." He also called for unity and said that he understands that people are frustrated, but this is a time to come together; blame can be passed out at a later time. He also mentioned that he believed Bush to be compassionate and concerned, both on camera and off camera as he has been dealing with this tragedy. It's not all black folks who are accusing the president and government of considering race when it came time to help those effected by the disaster.

Well the mayor is responsible for evacuating the people of his city. In fact, he called for it, and many people who could have left, as we can see, didn't leave. I hate to blame him because I can see that the situation is killing him, but in all fairness, he deserves some of the blame as well. In the chain of command, he is the closest to the people and had the first say in how things unfolded. I wouldn't dare say that his inability to get people who could leave to leave had anything to do with racism. But if seems that if this was a white mayor, the issue of racism may have popped up already.

Crack hit the streets in 1984... I will call you out and put you on blast when you post foolishness of inaccurate information. Do your research before you post if you want to remain credible, cause I have no problem correcting you if you are wrong... ← Crack cocain is recognized as becoming a huge problem (epidemic) in 84 (or possibly 85), but it hit the streets much earlier, in the late 70's. I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist, so I don't really put much thought into if Bush Sr. or Reagen or whomever funded/put out crack with a purpose. But I do know that many people believe it. People also believe (including Will Smith, at one point, in reference to Ted bringing him up earlier) that the government introduced AIDS to attack the black population. There isn't any evidence, that I'm aware of, of crack or aids or whatever coming from the government. But it's not out of the realm of possability (which you seem to be implying). The US government does do some very bad things, as well as some officials in the government. The CIA, or at least some members, did view the Black Panthers as a major threat to the US. As I'm sure you know, Bush Sr. was CIA director from 76-77, rougly the same time that crack began circulation in the US. So maybe, maybe Bush Sr. had something to do with it. I don't really know, I don't think the public ever will know, but it's not all that crazy that it could have happened. Edit: I originally started this post with a snide comment, which I just removed. Discussions are interesting and constructive, but snide comments are neither. My bad. My point is that you're being the "fact" police, but people do make mistakes, and not all facts are known. So there's a lot of grey area involved. ← I'm not the fact police, I admit, but people are making statements that are completely unfounded and it's happend several times in this thread. It's one thing to say that Bush Sr. may have had something to do with putting crack on the street, but the accusation was that he put crack on the streets to keep black people down or something to that effect. The statement was made with certainty as if it is fact. That's simply irresponsible. Bill O'Reilly was accused of raping someone... The government doesn't have enough money to deal with the crisis in NO. It's statements like these that degrade the quality of the debate. It's one thing to make a mistake, but to stand by something that has been shown to be inaccurate or ambiguous... We need to be more responsible in the things we post.

This conversation has taken a ridiculous turn from what Kanye said to personal commentary... I'll indulge you for a second. I can understand why O'Reilly said what he said. He spews his conservative foolishness and undoubtably has an agenda, so I wouldn't take anything from his seriously, regardless of whether he reflects my sentiments or not. His track record hasn't been good. But he still hasn't been accused of raping anyone Ted. Are you ready to rectify that statement yet. But in truth, Kanye made a statement on national television that he has no evidence for or proof of. When you say stupid and inappropriate things, you're going to be criticized, ask George Bush. Moreover, when you say stupid things as a representative of some organization, your organization is going to get criticized too. Kanye went on NBC as Kanye West the rapper, not Kanye West the citizen. His celebrity was supposed to attract people and encourage them to send money. Instead, he gave people who already don't like hip hop reason to attack it and through him, attack other rappers. Ted, don't assume that you know anything about me just because you know what school I go to. There's a reason I don't go around parading my information. I don't know what gave you the right to do it for me, but slow your role, and slow it quickly. You really don't know anything about me. You don't know where I've been in the world nor do you know what I've experienced. I don't pretend to know everything, but I will speak on what I know, and I will call things the way I see it. I will also call into question the inaccurate information people purport to be fact, and there has been a lot of that in this thread. If you're not sure of something, don't post it. If you've heard something, but don't have any evidence for it when it is called into question, don't post it.

So because rappers say it, it must be true... Incidentally, Ted, mentioning Harvard is not in your best interst hommie. You don't want to take the conversation down that road... And don't ever tell me to get my facts striaght. My facts are stright. They are on point. You still think that Bill O'Reilly raped someone, somewhere... You sound ridiculous...

So why don't you come right out and say it Frenetic. Because the government was slow to resond to the disaster, people have the right to shoot at navy contractors and rescue helicopters. They have the right to steal valuables, thing that aren't important to their survival. They have the right to make law enforcement's job harder and hinder rescue and relief efforts. Just say it, go ahead... because from the things you've said, it's apparently what you are thinking. I don't know if you've been looking at the coverage lately, but the relief efforts have picked up dramatically. Perhaps if you try hard enough, you can find a way to blame that on racism...