MaxFly

Time out, we need to tell the media not to criticize people comitting blatant crimes? Maybe we should tell the media not to mention the violence too. I have no problem with the media criticizing Bush... they're asking relevant questions... They aren't basically calling him racist though, are they Ted? And on the flipside of your statement, if Kanye is going to criticize Bush, he needs to address the people comitting crimes... and I'm not talking about people taking food.

It seems that the media has done an excellent and fair job in covering what has gone on post Katrina. The peoples' suffering has been captured, and that has largely been the focus of the tragedy. There has been a great deal of discussion as to why FEMA and the federal government responded so slowly, and there has been coverage of the violence and lawlessness taking place in the city. In the middle of all of this, news on Rehnquist's death and Robert's nomination for chief justice has also peaked in... I'm still waiting to hear you say that the crime taking place in the city is bad... You don't even have to say that it is hindering relief efforts... Just say that it is bad... Go ahead...

Florida wasn't flooded Ted. Florida, even with it's 4 hurricanes wasn't nearly as big a disaster as NO is this time. Also, the vast majority of people evacuated areas in the paths of the hurricanes. There weren't nearly as many people left behind in Florida as there are in NO now to provide rescure effots to. The disaster NO has seen is quite literally the biggest natural disaster the US has ever seen, many times more disasterous than Florida. The government was slow to respond... but to immediately say that it is because of racism... how ignorant can we be...

I'm still waiting for your response on Georges Bush senior putting crack in the streets in 1984 when he wasn't president until 1989. Crack hit the streets in 1984... That would mean that Ronald Regean along with Bush sr. were involved in putting crack on the streets... Still waiting for that response... Note to everyone on the forum: I will call you out and put you on blast when you post foolishness of inaccurate information. Do your research before you post if you want to remain credible, cause I have no problem correcting you if you are wrong... Thanks.

Did you read what I wrote? Let me explain it again, slowly. Even more, if you don't believe me, you can look it up on the internet or you can go to your local library and find the information yourself. This is public knowledge and can easily be found. Disaster relief funds were indeed cut as you have said. However, in the creation of the department of homeland security and FEMA, any loss in the funding of the disaster relief funds of the US government were more than made up for. The government consolidated 22 agencies in the federal government so that they could work more closely and in sync with one another to address catastrophe's on US soil. The department of homeland security, through use of money allocated for emergency response, is more than capable of bearing the cost of aid to the southern region. They are well funded because they have geared of as the result of the threat of terrorist attacks. FEMA, functioning under this department is more than capable of bearinging the fanancial burden. The US navy, army, airforce, and national guard are more than capable of bearing the financial burden as well as providing the man power. You have absolutely no argument when it comes to this. The statement you made about the US not having enough money to handle the tragedy is completely false and needs to be corrected. Again, FEMA is well funded and has the funds needed to provide relief to the South. Their problem is that they are too slow. Too much bureaucracy, not enough organization. Yes, Bush has been focused on the war in Iraq cause he needs to clean up his mess. He got us into that waste of time and resources, he needs to get us out. I would be concerned if he wasn't focused on it. We shouldn't be there in the first place, but since we are, his job now is to make sure we leave as quickly as possible while leaving a reasonable amount of stability in the region. If your beef was with the lack of direction on social security or other social programs, you would have a point. However, the one US homeland concern that Bush has focused on is homeland security, and as I said above, disaster relief is a big part of homeland security. As a result, disaster relief is well funded, not underfunded. The reason we don't need help from other countries is that we have the funds and the manpower to do the job. They were just slow in being deployed. Partly Bush's fault, mostly FEMA's fault. It's likely that Bush will fire Mike Brown when all is said and done... Someone will be fired... Incidently, I'm not a republican. Far from it. But I do my homework. I don't make up my mind on issues based on personal bias or because Jesse Jackson or Kanye West said something, or because Pat Robertson or George Bush said something. If a republican says something, I do my homework. If a democrat says something, I do my homework. If an independent says something, I do my homework. I look at the facts and come to a conclusion. I don't try to come to a conclusion, and then try to make the facts fit my predetermined conclusion. No, the President does not have the highest power. Per mandate of the 10th Amendment of the Constitution, the right and powers that are not delegated to the US government by the Constitution are reserved for the states. The ability to call for mandatory evacuations are reserved powers for the govenor and mayor of a state or city. The president has the power to call a mandatory evacuation when, and only when the federal government has taken control. The governor and mayor would need to cede power to the federal government in such a case. The govenor of Louisiana refused to do that. He isn't wrongfully informed: THE ONLY direct thing he said agaisnst bush was that he doesn't care about black people. That he probably bases on that this country is his country, he probably ment the goverment and authoritys, that includes your lovers bush and the governer and mayor. I don't love Bush. I actually think that he has done an awful job as president in the last 4 and a half years. That being said, I don't buy into the propaganda. I'd rather hear the truth than hear what I'd like to hear. I try not to let my personal biases goven my judgement. I have no idea what he was thinking. That was obviously bad judgement, but it doesn't strike me that he did it out of racism or because of discrimination as some of you and Kanye have intimated. He as admitted that the government has acted too slowly and has seemed to do the best he can since. If you would put aside your bias for one second, you would see that. He deserves criticism for his slow response, but he deserves neither all nor most of the blame in this.

Lol, at least we're not talking about 50 or how good Will looks...

I fully agree with everything in that statement. As I have said, this thing initially wasn't handled well. I don't believe that it was and I have never stated that it was. But I think that to immediately blame the slow reaction by the govenment on racism and discrimination is ignorant. Wait until all the information is in.

Think about this Frenetic: What your source doesn't tell you is that while Bush did indeed cut funds for hurricane disaster aftermath for specically such a disaster, the same money that was lost there was made up when the department of homeland security was created, the same organization that is over FEMA and would be directly involved in relief efforts after a hurricane. In essence, hurricane relief funds were consolidated and not entirely cut. The problem however is that there is more bureacracy. Bush was too shortsighted to see this. If your souce is too be completely truthful, they would have added that important piece if information. The US had and has enough money for relief... Your statement is a flat out false Frenetic. Completely wrong and baseless and I expect to to retract that statement as soon as possible. FEMA and the department of homeland security as a whole are very well funded. The department of homeland security especially with the recent threat of terrorist attacks. The problem is that because of all the bureacracy and truthfully, the lack of insight, they acted slowly initially. But they are extremely well funded. He could have ordered a better evacuation? That's a false statement too. In the case of a natural disaster, the mayor of a city and the govenor of a state order evacuations. That power is alloted to the states by mandate of the 10th Ammendment of the Constitution. Infact, the govenor refused to federalize the evacuation and rescue process when the president asked her to because she didn't want to give up power. You have to get the full story. About unity. Creating more controversy when we should be attempting to create unity is never a good thing, regardless of the conditions. Further igniting emotions at a time when emotions are already high is never a good thing. Calling out the president at the wrong time and place, especially when you're not fully informed is never a good thing. Now that I've addressed your concerns, I am still waiting on you to address why people shot at Navy Core of Engineer workers who are were attemting to get to one of the levees to repair it. I also expect you to retract that false statement about the lack of funds for relief efforts.

It matters when and where Kanye said what he said because he was asked and agreed do what the benefit concert organizers asked him to do... and he didn't... Instead he spoke on his political beliefs and likely turned many people off and caused a lot of outrage at a time and place where he was supposed to be garnering support, funds, and in general, unity. A great number of people have called NBC to protest what Kanye said, accusing him of politicizing a situation in which people were dying. Regardless of whether you agree with what he said or not, his statements did cause controversy at a time when controversy is the last thing that is needed, and even if it wasn't his intention, he politicized a tragedy. Instead of focusing on how the black community abroad, he, and other wealthy musicians and actors could help in the relief efforts, instead of focusing on how all americans could help his people, he chose to devote a large chunk of the time he had to criticize the President and the government, and even worse, at a time that he wasn't fully knowledgeable of the situation. If Kanye had a full understanding of the neglect, he would have first criticized FEMA and the Louisiana governor. Unfortunately, he just became another rapper spitting "knowledge" on an issue he didn't "know" enough about. Where's Barak Obama when you need him. ← There's many people who agree with Kanye too at the same time, you don't watch the news and see all the people criticising Bush? Representives from the Red Cross, the media, and other government leaders from other countries are all saying that Bush dropped the ball. Open your eyes man! In all fairness though whether you agree or disagree with Kanye we're all on the same team ain't we? We gotta work together and unify together to get all the victims out of there in New Orleans, everybody needs to help, Bush needs to help, the black community needs to help, all celebrities need to help, we gotta come together! ← Are you saying that because others agree with Kanye that Bush doesn't care about black people, both Kanye and those people have to be right? I don't think I have to even correct you on that. You must have caught the glaring gap in that piece of logic by now. Representatives from the Red Cross, the media, and other government leaders are heavily criticizing FEMA as well, much much more than they are criticizing Bush. The President is the most visible and easiest person to blame, but if you want to call yourself educated, if you want to say that you are erudite, if you believe yourself to be knowledgeable, you need to examine the whole situation. Don't heap the blame on the most visible person. Investigate, and then if that person is to blame indeed, get on with the blaming... Unfortunately for Kanye and for some of you, the most visible and easiest person to blame in this situation doesn't deserve all of the blame or even the majority of the blame and either you haven't done your homework or you're just too stubborn to admit it.

"We're angry, Mr. President, and we'll be angry long after our beloved city and surrounding parishes have been pumped dry," the editorial said. "Our people deserved rescuing. Many who could have been were not. That's to the government's shame." That piece of criticism, the President deserves. But again, the article doesn't focus blame on him. It focuses blame on FEMA. Kanye West didn't say anything about FEMA. Didn't say anything about the Govenor of Louisiana. Didn't say anything about the gangs in NO who are just making relief efforts more difficult. But he did call out the President by name. Makes you question not only the time and place he chose to say what he needed to say, but how knowledgeable he was on the situation before he talked.

It matters when and where Kanye said what he said because he was asked and agreed do what the benefit concert organizers asked him to do... and he didn't... Instead he spoke on his political beliefs and likely turned many people off and caused a lot of outrage at a time and place where he was supposed to be garnering support, funds, and in general, unity. A great number of people have called NBC to protest what Kanye said, accusing him of politicizing a situation in which people were dying. Regardless of whether you agree with what he said or not, his statements did cause controversy at a time when controversy is the last thing that is needed, and even if it wasn't his intention, he politicized a tragedy. Instead of focusing on how the black community abroad, he, and other wealthy musicians and actors could help in the relief efforts, instead of focusing on how all americans could help his people, he chose to devote a large chunk of the time he had to criticize the President and the government, and even worse, at a time that he wasn't fully knowledgeable of the situation. If Kanye had a full understanding of the neglect, he would have first criticized FEMA and the Louisiana governor. Unfortunately, he just became another rapper spitting "knowledge" on an issue he didn't "know" enough about. Where's Barak Obama when you need him.

I agree Ted. However, instead of blaming people, citizens should be working together to provide relief. There will be plenty of time for blame. The thing is that people like Kanye are quick to blame the government, but silent when his own people are shooting at one another and at law officials. If you're going to pass out criticism, do so judiciously and fairly.

That is exactly my question to you Frenetic. Why do you keep providing excuses for those who are acting lawlessly; I haven't heard a peep from you in this whole discussion about how outraged you are that young men are raping girls or how disgusted you are that they are shooting at rescue workers. You've done nothing but deflect questions about those realities. I've posted links to pictures of the looting... You said that you hadn't seen a single picture of someone stealing DVDs or TVs. You can no longer say that. Is it that you really don't see what is right infront of you, or is it that you see it but refuse to accept it. I really want to hear your explanation for why 8 men fired at Navy Core of Engineer workers who were going to work on the levees yesterday. How was that apart of their survival? I want to hear your explanation for why men have raped little girls. How is that apart of their survival? Why did men shoot at rescue helicopters. How was that apart of their survival? Someone earlier said that other countries are looking at the relief efforts and are criticizing the government. What do you think the people of the world are thinking about black people when they look at the city and see the violence and the lawlessness taking place all while people are dying and honest people are trying to survive. Is this the type of image we should be displaying across the world? When people become myopic and are quick to blame outside forces, but refuse to ever look inwardly and address their own issues, change will never come about.

Earlier someone mentioned that they hadn't seen not one picture of someone carrying a tv in looting. Here you go... http://www.nbc10.com/news/4917570/detail.html

And... more stories... Those trapped in the city faced an increasingly lawless environment, as law enforcement agencies found themselves overwhelmed with widespread looting. Looters swarmed the Wal-mart on Tchoupitoulas Street, often bypassing the food and drink section to steal wide-screen TVs, jewelry, bicycles and computers. Watching the sordid display and shaking his head in disgust, one firefighter said of the scene: "It’s a f---- hurricane, what are you do with a basketball goal?" Police regained control at about 3 p.m., after clearing the store with armed patrol. One shotgun-toting Third District detective described the looting as "ferocious." "And it’s going to get worse as the days progress," he said. In Uptown, one the few areas that remained dry, a bearded man patrolled Oak Street near the boarded-up Maple Leaf Bar, a sawed-off shotgun slung over his shoulder. The owners of a hardware store sat in folding chairs, pistols at the ready. Uptown resident Keith Williams started his own security patrol, driving around in his Ford pickup with his newly purchased handgun. Earlier in the day, Williams said he had seen the body of a gunshot victim near the corner of Leonidas and Hickory streets. "What I want to know is why we don’t have paratroopers with machine guns on every street," Williams said. Like-minded Art Depodesta sat on the edge of a picnic table outside Cooter Brown’s Bar, a chrome shotgun at his side loaded with red shells. "They broke into the Shell station across the street," he said. "I walked over with my 12-gauge and shot a couple into the air." The looters scattered, but soon after, another man appeared outside the bar in a pickup truck armed with a pistol and threatened Depodesta. "I told him, ‘Listen, I was in the Army and I will blow your ass off,’" Depodesta said. "We’ve got enough trouble with the flood." The man sped away. "You know what sucks," Depodesta said. "The whole U.S. is looking at this city right now, and this is what they see." In the Bywater, a supply store sported spray-painted signs reading "You Loot, I Shoot" and "You Bein Watched." A man seated nearby with a rifle in his lap suggested it was no idle threat. At the Bywater studio of Dr. Bob, the artist known for handpainted "Be Nice or Leave" signs, a less fanciful sentiment was painted on the wall: "Looters Will Be Shot. Dr. Bob."

http://www.snopes.com/photos/katrina/looters.asp

Yeah, I definitely feel you on that. I exect that he will give privately...

Yup... Also, the government ignores "hip hop" because the majority of these people don't vote. How can you say, "I want to be apart of the process. I want the government to listen to my concerns" if you're not involved in choosing your elected officials?

Again, just to draw attention to this... Troops earlier today shot and killed 5 or 6 out of 8 gunmen who fired at navy core of engineer workers trying to repair one of the levees... "They've given them permission to go down and shoot us." Good call Kanye... who gave these gunmen permission to shoot at relief workers?

That, I can agree with. At the same time, we need to temper what we say and how we say it. Also, in addition, even more important than speaking out againt "the man," these rappers need to stress the importance of education and the acceptance of responsibility to the youth and the black community in general. People, in general shouted down Bill Cosby when he addressed the topic. Maybe if Kanye West says the same thing, they'll listen this time around... People love to be confrontational, love to say "Fight the power!" but it's rare in the black community to hear, "Think about your future!" "Focus on your education!" "Behave respectably!" "Respect one another!" I'd like to hear Kanye and others address those issues.

And true leaders take responsability for the people under them. Bush is the president. I would imagine that if he called FEMA and said "Fix this, now!" things would be very different. It doesn't really matter if he has the authority to do something, if he has the influence to make things happen. But he had a guitar to receive, or some such thing. ← As I understand it, that is in essence what he said to Michael Chertoff and Michael Brown when he was informed that FEMA was moving slowly, and things are very different now than they were at the beginning.

They reportedly have orders to shoot: "The soldiers, some back from Iraq, have orders to shoot to kill looters and gunmen. There are now 30,000 national guard troops and 3,000 regular soldiers on the US Gulf coast." http://www.guardian.co.uk/katrina/story/0,...1561561,00.html Yea, shoot looters and gunmen, but what makes a looter? Some cat with some soda? (such as that yahoo article) And Kanye didn't say that "Georges Bush doesn't like black people" He said "George Bush doesn't care about black people." according to the original article. ← So troops should be told not to shoot? Let crime run rampant? Let those who raided the gun shops and the gun section at the Walmart have their way? Don't worry about the fact that these young men are raping people or shooting at them? Let's be serious. Troops haven't been ordered to shoot at people taking soda... They've been told to reestablish order and to stop crime, shoot if they have to, all in an attempt to make the rescue efforts in Louisiana smoother and easier for surviviors and for those aiding in the relief efforts. People are shooting at rescue helicopters... what would you do? The police shot and killed 5 gunmen today who fired at navy core of engineer workers... You have to understand that these troops are necessary... It would be interesting to find out what Kanye has to say to these people shooting at rescue workers... He seems to be harsh on those who are trying to help and silent on those who are hindering the efforts. Yes, you're right. Kanye said that Bush doesn't care about black people. My mistake.

Roughly 50% of the US gets their news not from CNN or MSNBC, but local stations, specifically the nightly news. (hence my statements about the difference between IN news and MA news) And yes, after Kanye's statements I've seen discussion of race and economic factors. ← And how many of those that are having these discussions have noted that Kanye West is the reason these issues are being addressed.

Frenetic: Why can't you realize that it is not always appropriate to speak you mind when you feel the need to. Issues like the one Kanye addressed need to be addressed with tact and grace... not accusations and criticisms on national television. He said that troops are going down to Louisiana to shoot people, however anyone who is unbias can see that they are going down there with the intent of reestablishing order and to save lives... He said that Bush doesn't care about black people, as close to calling him racist as you can get. Moreover, he stated it as fact rather than as his opinion. Can you not understand how ignorant that is? If he wants to criticize someone, he should have done his research and criticized FEMA or the government officials in Louisiana... True leaders try to be informed before they run their mouths...

Ted, what I don't understand is how you can ignore what is right in front of you. Does Kanye have to right to speak up for what he believes in. Yes... Did he have the right to say what he said at the benefit concert... Yes... Kanye could have called all of the white people in the world racist. He could have insulted everyone in the federal government. He could have yelled... He had the right to do all of those things... The problem is that in exercising his rights, he exibited poor judgement. How are you supposed to create unity at an event that is devoted to creating unity while at the same time creating controversy... What's more, specifically, he said that Georges Bush doesn't like black people... We're so worried about Kanye having the freedom to exercise his rights, we don't care if what he said is ignorant or not? People are being sent down to shoot people? Is Kanye daft? Troops are being sent down to reestablish order in the midst of violence and disorder, not for the purpose of shooting people... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9063708/