L&F falls badly on charts

[rcpbball30]

I agree about the bias against old-school rappers. There also seems to be a bias against intelligent, conscious rapping too. Look at Switch and look how well it did, that's because it is dumbed down. Look at the lyrics in Party Starter, "Food for thought, or dumb the rhyme a little." He dumbed it down and it was a hit. It is the only thing that sells these days, unintelligent rap like 50 Cent and Mike Jones. It is horrible!

[bigted]

"Switch" isn't Will's best song but I wouldn't call it a dumbed down song, it's a fun song, hip-hop's supposed to be fun too and Will's about having fun that's his personna but he ain't puttin' out somethin' that's trashy, no matter how serious we might act we all like to have fun too, that's even why Public Enemy has Flava Flav, before Chuck D got signed to Def Jam he used to be a party rapper, I'd call dumbed down songs ones about bangin' as many hoes as you can, braggin' about how much dope you sold, guns you have, and flashin' your rolle and Benz' in your videos which is not a good example for the youth.

Edited July 30, 2005 by bigted

[TopDawg14]

I think Maxfly is missing something about Will's performances. The NBA Finals is a perfect example. They asked Will to perform Switch because it was a song that everyone was familiar with and it's a fun song. The people asking Will to perform usually want him to perform songs that everyone knows. And in the case of the NBA Finals, he could only perform 1 song so it had to be Switch(it was also the song that ABC requested he perform). When a singer/rapper goes on most big-time TV performances they have to perform songs that most people are familiar with. Will can't do anything about that except perform the song(s) that the TV show wants him to.

If Will could have done something extra, he could have headlined a tour with Jeff and other artists. That's the only thing that he didn't do. And even that requires that you get corporate sponsors and other artists to go along with it and that's hard enough in and of itself.

I agree with Ted on this one. It really wouldn't have mattered what Will did to promote the album, most people think of Will as soft and that's the end of it. As fans, we know better but you can't force people to like him. They're into gangsta nonsense and trash. That's what sells. Will is too clean and has too much integrity to sell his soul like that.

And as I stated before, Overbrook doesn't have the type of money that labels like Sony and Interscope have. These other labels have the money to spend millions on promotion. They pay radio stations to constantly play songs from these artists. They pay BET & MTV to play the videos. These other labels kiss butt and play politics to hype these other rappers. Overbrook doesn't have that type of money or power to that and even if they did they wouldn't because of the integrity issue. The Bible says, "What profits a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul?"

Will put a product out there. He promoted it. He had something to say on the album. He said it and that's that. If people don't buy it then it's their loss. I'm like Ted - people know who Will is and the fact he has an album out. The reason why it hasn't gone platinum yet has nothing to do with Party Starter being released in August. It has to do with the fact that people are loving rappers who are rapping about foul and immoral mess.

[MaxFly]

I think Maxfly is missing something about Will's performances.  The NBA Finals is a perfect example.  They asked Will to perform Switch because it was a song that everyone was familiar with and it's a fun song.  The people asking Will to perform usually want him to perform songs that everyone knows.  And in the case of the NBA Finals, he could only perform 1 song so it had to be Switch(it was also the song that ABC requested he perform).  When a singer/rapper goes on most big-time TV performances they have to perform songs that most people are familiar with.  Will can't do anything about that except perform the song(s) that the TV show wants him to.

If Will could have done something extra, he could have headlined a tour with Jeff and other artists.  That's the only thing that he didn't do.  And even that requires that you get corporate sponsors and other artists to go along with it and that's hard enough in and of itself. 

I agree with Ted on this one.  It really wouldn't have mattered what Will did to promote the album, most people think of Will as soft and that's the end of it.  As fans, we know better but you can't force people to like him.  They're into gangsta nonsense and trash.  That's what sells.  Will is too clean and has too much integrity to sell his soul like that. 

And as I stated before, Overbrook doesn't have the type of money that labels like Sony and Interscope have.  These other labels have the money to spend millions on promotion.  They pay radio stations to constantly play songs from these artists.  They pay BET & MTV to play the videos.  These other labels kiss butt and play politics to hype these other rappers.  Overbrook doesn't have that type of money or power to that and even if they did they wouldn't because of the integrity issue.  The Bible says, "What profits a man to gain the whole world but lose his soul?" 

Will put a product out there.  He promoted it.  He had something to say on the album.  He said it and that's that.  If people don't buy it then it's their loss.  I'm like Ted - people know who Will is and the fact he has an album out.  The reason why it hasn't gone platinum yet has nothing to do with Party Starter being released in August.  It has to do with the fact that people are loving rappers who are rapping about foul and immoral mess.

←

Where. To. Begin.

topdawg, since you've put me on the spot... more or less... let me return the favor.

Direct Question: Do you truly believe that having Switch out for 5 months as the only single was the best road to take in promoting Lost and Found?

Let me respond to your post now.

No, topdawg, I haven't missed a single thing. The NBA or ABC may have asked Will to specifically perform Switch at the finals and that is fine. I've already stated that I wish he could have done Party Starter, but what he was asked to do was what he had to do, no problem there. However, what prevented Will from performing other songs from the album at the Live 8 and Nokia? Also, Will didn't seem to have any problem performing Party Starter at the 46664 event in South Africa even though the crowd wasn't familiar with it...

What prevented Will from releasing Party Starter a month ago? Would Party Starter's release then have hurt album sales? Would even less people buy Lost and Found because Party Starter was now out and realized that not all the songs on the album were like Switch?

Moving along, you stated, concerning promotion...

And as I stated before, Overbrook doesn't have the type of money that labels like Sony and Interscope have.

I can't get over the most obvious thing here... Switch has been out for almost 5 months... Its been the only single off of the album, yet you and Ted keep saying that there's not much else Will could have done to promote the album. That's not true... That is not true. A single is a form of promotion for an album... It then follows that releasing a second single in a timely fashion would have been a form of promotion that Will did not do. Performing another song from the album in concerts and events where Will had free reign would have been a form of promotion as well, especially with the large audiences, including radio and tv that some of those events had.

As for radio and tv playing Will's music... I've seen and heard Switch multiple times on both mediums. BET played the Switch video 3 or 4 times a day. Radio played Switch quite often as well; look at Switch's number of spins... This time around, those aren't acceptable excuses. Switch was played quite often and that is partly why it was so successful. There's no indication that Party Starter would have been any less successful if released earlier.

Let me say this for what is hopefully the last time.... I hope I'm clear this time...

I don't expect Lost and Found to do ridiculous numbers, but at the same time Lost and Found is not doing as well as it can do. It's not doing as well as it can do. Lost and Found is not doing as well as it can do. I said it three times so that my position on this issue won't be confused. There are decisions and actions, which I've stated, that could have been done to help further promote the album, boost album sales a little and garner more interest and buzz for the album.

No Spin. No excuses.

Edited July 31, 2005 by MaxFly

[WesSyde]

:word: :yeahthat: that totally sums up my feelings... i'm not expecting a miracle here, but Max said the truth, it's not doing as well as it can. that post was the best post in this whole entire thread... and it hits the nail on the head perfectly.

[TopDawg14]

Direct Question: Do you truly believe that having Switch out for 5 months as the only single was the best road to take in promoting Lost and Found?

No, topdawg, I haven't missed a single thing. The NBA or ABC may have asked Will to specifically perform Switch at the finals and that is fine. I've already stated that I wish he could have done Party Starter, but what he was asked to do was what he had to do, no problem there. However, what prevented Will from performing other songs from the album at the Live 8 and Nokia? Also, Will didn't seem to have any problem performing Party Starter at the 46664 event in South Africa even though the crowd wasn't familiar with it...

What prevented Will from releasing Party Starter a month ago? Would Party Starter's release then have hurt album sales? Would even less people buy Lost and Found because Party Starter was now out and realized that not all the songs on the album were like Switch?

Moving along, you stated, concerning promotion...

And as I stated before, Overbrook doesn't have the type of money that labels like Sony and Interscope have.

I can't get over the most obvious thing here... Switch has been out for almost 5 months... Its been the only single off of the album, yet you and Ted keep saying that there's not much else Will could have done to promote the album. That's not true... That is not true. A single is a form of promotion for an album... It then follows that releasing a second single in a timely fashion would have been a form of promotion that Will did not do. Performing another song from the album in concerts and events where Will had free reign would have been a form of promotion as well, especially with the large audiences, including radio and tv that some of those events had.

As for radio and tv playing Will's music... I've seen and heard Switch multiple times on both mediums. BET played the Switch video 3 or 4 times a day. Radio played Switch quite often as well; look at Switch's number of spins... This time around, those aren't acceptable excuses. Switch was played quite often and that is partly why it was so successful. There's no indication that Party Starter would have been any less successful if released earlier.

No Spin. No excuses.

←

(In Samuel L. Jackson's voice from Pulp Fiction) Well allow me to retort.

I'm not spinning anything. I'm just giving my opinion on what's happened with L&F.

People are saying Party Starter would have been huge if it was released earlier but no one knows for sure. What if he released it earlier and it flopped? I'm just being a realist about this. No one knows what Will's intentions were as far as promoting L&F but simply from a money standpoint it wouldn't be a good business decision to release single after single. In 1995, Sony dropped $20 million on Michael Jackson's HIStory album, released 6 videos(Scream, 2 versions of They Don't Care About Us, Earth Song, You Are Not Alone, Stranger In Moscow) to show and 5 singles(Scream, This Time Around, You Are Not Alone, They Don't Care About Us, Stranger In Moscow) to radio over the course of 2 yearsand the album still underperformed mightily. It's just not a good business decision to drop all of that money when you're not really sure if you're going to get it back. As far as the other performances it seems the only place he had free reign was the 46664 event. The Nokia and Live 8 events probably had the same stipulations as the NBA Finals. Maybe his intention was to put out the CD and keep stepping. He's always said that he does music because he wants to not 'cuz he has to. I will stand by my point that he did enough promotion.

I checked out a bunch of message boards besides the rap message boards and people knew about the album. A bunch of these sites had the album on the board ready to download. Illegal downloading probably ate a bit of his sales. You have to look at the legal downloading as well. Some people probably downloaded certain songs and not the whole album. What this still boils down to is the decision made by the masses at large. A lot of them decided in their minds a long time ago that Will Smith was wack to them and no matter what he did or how "hot" the music was they still weren't going to buy it. That's not his fault; he's got to remain true to himself.

Was I hoping the album would been platinum by now? Sure but I can't stress over the fact that it hasn't just like I can't stress over the fact that nobody wants to hear cats like Cross Movement spit. It's the masses' loss.

Edited July 31, 2005 by TopDawg14

[bigted]

Well I could agree with one point that Maxfly made there, he shoulda released more singles faster, but in order for that to happen he wouldn't be able to do so many TV appearances, he'd take that money to shoot the music video, but the performances helped push "Switch" into the top 10, he could've only done TRL, 106 & Park, and Today Show and then just shot more videos but it's a possiblity that "Switch" wouldn't hit that high on top 40 'cause it didn't start peaking until after all his TV appearances and "Party Starter" probably wouldn't either, sometimes the way you want it might not work either, it's a buisiness and the industry's biased against Will in the 1st place 'cause they don't like playing positive music, I can't imagine radio playing a song where Will complains about A& R's in heavy rotation realisitically, they rather play a song about hoes all day which is much safer for them, (even Kanye's new single isn't gettin' as much airplay as "Jesus Walks" and it's the most positive song out now, it still ain't in top 40 yet after 2 months) which means the album sales might've slowed down as fast as Beanie Siegal's, who released 2 videos at once but at least he had black radio bumping him, it's better that the album's gone gold instead of only 200,000 right now even with "Party Starter" out that fell off the chart, how'd u feel about that? And of course the "L&F" album could've gone platinum, Slick Rick's last album should've gone platinum too but there's nothin' we could do about that now, I was just happy to see Will performin' on TV so much at once, I don't know about you! Will was out there promoting album up to the point where people would know the album's out there for them to check out, a few might've, but the public majority has decided not to and that's not his fault, you might not like "Switch" but the public made it a hit and more could've bought the album from it but they're brainwashed on 50 Cent, I can't imagine the majority of 50 Cent's fanbase wanting to listen to Will, I already heard some people sayin' that Will was biting Ludacris' flow on "Party Starter" so they probably wouldn't like it just for that reason 'cause they're ignorant like that, Will's only been rappin' like this for years though, that's how much they were not opened minded to actually listen to some of his music! "Party Starter" won't be that much of hit when it's released right now either if radio and TV don't play this 20 times a day like Mike Jones' single 'cause Will's shootin' a film and won't be able to go out to perform it, it's up to the peeps to step up and vote for it, Will could do all he can, the peeps have to respond too.

Edited July 31, 2005 by bigted

[MaxFly]

You stated

People are saying Party Starter would have been huge if it was released earlier but no one knows for sure. What if he released it earlier and it flopped?

What if Will releases Party Starter now and it flops? Should he not release Party Starter at all from fear that the single wouldn't do well? If he plans to release it anyway, why not earlier to bolster falling album sales instead of later when album sales are at 12k and the album is number #85 on the charts? And please don't make it sound like Overbrook doesn't have money to get things done... The Party Starter video was shot at the beginning of June and it sounds relatively expensive from the descriptions we've gotten... The video was done already... It's been sitting for about a month and a few weeks now.

You listed a great deal about the Michael Jackson HIStory album and its shortcomings, however we are just talking about one more single (which was bound to be released) and a couple of other songs in his performances. He intended to release Party Starter; he should have released it earlier so that on the off chance that it didn't flop (since is so likely to flop given how Switch has done), it would have kept album sales somewhat afloat and again maintained a buzz around the album. If Party Starter did flop, two options... get ready to release Tell Me Why for the fall, or give up on on Lost and Fall altogether. Knowing Will, and knowing that this album isn't Born 2 Reign, I doubt he'd give up on an album he took a year away from movies to focus on. I doubt he'd just give up on an album in which he put forth a great deal of effort to be introspective and write from his heart. At the very least, if Party Starter had flopped in June, Will would have had more options at that time than he has if Party Starter flops now, and album sales would still be higher right now.

As much as we discuss whether Party Starter could or would flop, I don't think anyone is going to start contending that Party Starter would have hurt album sales.

As far as the other performances it seems the only place he had free reign was the 46664 event. The Nokia and Live 8 events probably had the same stipulations as the NBA Finals.

At Nokia, Will performed a host of songs, including The Fresh Prince of Bel Air theme song, Summertime, I Wanna Rock, Switch, and the mysterious Willywood lyrics... Are you saying that they asked Will to perform these songs and these songs only? Are you saying that someone at the music festival told him to perform the Willywood lyrics, especially since the people in the crowd aren't familiar with it?

It is evident that Will had a choice of which songs he could perform at the Nokia Music Festival. It is highly highly unlikely that Will was told to do these sets, including I Wanna Rock and the Willywood Lyrics.

The same goes for the Live 8. Will did Switch, Summertime, and TFPOBA theme song... usually at a concert, when an artist is doing a couple of sets, they have the choice as to what they will perform. It is also highly unlikely that someone handling the Live 8 told Will to perform the FPOBA theme...

Incidentally topdawg, you haven't really answered my question.

Do you truly believe that having Switch out for 5 months as the only single was the best road to take in promoting Lost and Found?

[MaxFly]

Well I could agree with one point that Maxfly made there, he shoulda released more singles faster, but in order for that to happen he wouldn't be able to do so many TV appearances, he'd take that money to shoot the music video, but the performances helped push "Switch" into the top 10, he could've only done TRL, 106 & Park, and Today Show and then just shot more videos but it's a possiblity that "Switch" wouldn't hit that high on top 40 'cause it didn't start peaking until after all his TV appearances and "Party Starter" probably wouldn't either, sometimes the way you want it might not work either, it's a buisiness and the industry's biased against Will in the 1st place 'cause they don't like playing positive music, I can't imagine radio playing a song where Will complains about A& R's in heavy rotation realisitically, they rather play a song about hoes all day which is much safer for them, (even Kanye's new single isn't gettin' as much airplay as "Jesus Walks" and it's the most positive song out now, it still ain't in top 40 yet after 2 months) which means the album sales might've slowed down as fast as Beanie Siegal's, who released 2 videos at once but at least he had black radio bumping him, it's better that the album's gone gold instead of only 200,000 right now even with "Party Starter" out that fell off the chart, how'd u feel about that? And of course the "L&F" album could've gone platinum, Slick Rick's last album should've gone platinum too but there's nothin' we could do about that now, I was just happy to see Will performin' on TV so much at once, I don't know about you!  Will was out there promoting album up to the point where people would know the album's out there for them to check out, a few might've, but the public majority has decided not to and that's not his fault, you might not like "Switch" but the public made it a hit and more could've bought the album from it but they're brainwashed on 50 Cent, I can't imagine the majority of 50 Cent's fanbase wanting to listen to Will, I already heard some people sayin' that Will was biting Ludacris' flow on "Party Starter" so they probably wouldn't like it just for that reason 'cause they're ignorant like that, Will's only been rappin' like this for years though, that's how much they were not opened minded to actually listen to some of his music! "Party Starter" won't be that much of hit when it's released right now either if radio and TV don't play this 20 times a day like Mike Jones' single 'cause Will's shootin' a film and won't be able to go out to perform it, it's up to the peeps to step up and vote for it, Will could do all he can, the peeps have to respond too.

←

Ted... Lost and Found sold 200k after the first 3 weeks. That was April... Surely you don't think I wanted Party Starter to be released that early when Switch was only out for a month and a half. Also, it doesn't take money to be invited to perform on tv programs. I don't think Will paid to perform at Nokia, Live 8, Nickelodeon, MTV Base and others... But let say he did. Lets say Overbrook had to pay for Will to perform... The Party Starter video was shot in June... so even then, it doesn't seem that all the appearaces Overbrook would have paid for hurt their ability to shoot a video.

You're basically saying that by Will releasing Party Starter earlier, he would have been on television less... why? That doesn't make sense. It seems that there would be incentive to be on television more for free promotion of the album and single.

Ted, you're also intimating that a release if Party Starter any earlier than now would have hurt album sales... You need to clarify that, because it seems that you're saying Party Starter would have hurt album sales and that's very unlikely.

"Party Starter" won't be that much of hit when it's released right now either if radio and TV don't play this 20 times a day like Mike Jones' single 'cause Will's shootin' a film and won't be able to go out to perform it, it's up to the peeps to step up and vote for it, Will could do all he can, the peeps have to respond too.

Trust me, I'll vote as much as possible, but this is exactly why Party Starter should have been released in June Ted. In June, Will would have been able to promote it along with continuing to perform Switch. Now, it's going to be a little harder for Party Starter to do well while Will is engaged in something else.

[bigted]

Yeah Will shot the video already in June but it's industry politics that's most likely holdin' it back not Will, the label probably told him to keep performing "Switch". You mean to tell me that a song complaining about A&R's and reminising of the ol' school is gonna go to #1 on the charts? lol That'd be a dream come true if that happened but that doesn't seem that likely no matter when it was released, people don't wanna bring the good ol' days back and the radio station is not gonna wanna play it in heavy rotation, it's the sad state of music right now, "Switch" only did well 'cause it's radio friendly, but even that didn't get the type of rotation that it should've gotten, Overbrook probably didn't pay radio/TV stations enough to play "Switch" as much as Interscope paid for "Candy Shop", let's be real we all voted about 100 times here on this board and it never made 106 &Park one day, the industry decides what to play more than the fans do, it's hard to fight big buisiness when they're not on your side, Will doesn't kiss ass like 50 Cent does to get his record played all day, even Kanye's song about the diamond trade hasn't hit the top 40 in 2 months and he's supposedly the most popular positive rapper out right now, so what chance does Will realistically have, he's ol' school plus he's postive so the odds were against him from the start of the album's realease, it's a good chance that "Party Starter" could've flopped and "Switch" wouldn't have peaked so high, I doubt that it doesn't cost money to perform on TV, that's bull****, if that was true then KRS-ONE could perform his single on 106 & Park, right? The record label pays the TV station to get their artist to perform on their shows, that's part of promotion, it's not charity.

Edited July 31, 2005 by bigted

[MaxFly]

Yeah Will shot the video already in June but it's industry politics that's most likely holdin' it back not Will, the label probably told him to keep performing "Switch".  You mean to tell me that a song complaining about A&R's and reminising of the ol' school is gonna go to #1 on the charts? lol That'd be a dream come true if that happened but that doesn't seem that likely no matter when it was released, people don't wanna bring the good ol' days back and the radio station is not gonna wanna play it in heavy rotation, it's the sad state of music right now, "Switch" only did well 'cause it's radio friendly, but even that didn't get the type of rotation that it should've gotten, Overbrook probably didn't pay radio/TV stations enough to play "Switch" as much as Interscope paid for "Candy Shop", let's be real we all voted about 100 times here on this board and it never made 106 &Park one day, the industry decides what to play more than the fans do, it's hard to fight big buisiness when they're not on your side, Will doesn't kiss ass like 50 Cent does to get his record played all day, even Kanye's song about the diamond trade hasn't hit the top 40 in 2 months and he's supposedly the most popular positive rapper out right now, so what chance does Will realistically have, he's ol' school plus he's postive so the odds were against him from the start of the album's realease, it's a good chance that "Party Starter" could've flopped and "Switch" wouldn't have peaked so high, I doubt that it doesn't cost money to perform on TV, that's bull****, if that was true then KRS-ONE could perform his single on 106 & Park, right?  The record label pays the TV station to get their artist to perform on their shows, that's part of promotion, it's not charity.

←

I doubt that it doesn't cost money to perform on TV, that's bull****, if that was true then KRS-ONE could perform his single on 106 & Park, right? The record label pays the TV station to get their artist to perform on their shows, that's part of promotion, it's not charity.

Are you saying that Will and Overbrook paid The Today Show, Leno, MTV, BET, Nokia, Live 8, MTVBase, Nikelodeon, and all the radio programs Will has appeared on so that they could invite Will to perform or give an interview?

Does someone else want to clarify and correct this notion? I just don't want to go off on a tanget, but this statement will defintely have that effect...

About Party Starter going to number 1 on the charts...

So all of a sudden, Party Starter is going to flop? If Party Starter doesn't hit number 1 on the charts or get into the top 5, that's a flop? Are you saying that Party Starter's release will afford no benefit to Lost and Found. Do you even really belive that, or are you making arguments for the sake of making arguments?

What you have to realize is that if Party Starter flops now, Lost and Found is pretty much done. If Party Starter flopped in June, Lost and Found would still have a chance to rebound with Tell Me Why. But then this again goes to the point of whether Party Starter would hurt album sales. People would have to specifically hear Party Starter and say, "I'm not going to buy Lost and Found because I don't like Party Starter" for Party Starter to hurt album sales, but we know from even other forums that people in general like Party Starter.

Ted, your saying that there is a good chance that Party Starter will flop is pretty much the same thing as saying that you believe that the album has pretty much

done the best that it can and that it is pretty much done at this point... You're entitled to your opinions... but do you really believe this, or are you just throwing out arguments for why Will was right to leave Switch out as the only single for 5 months?

[MaxFly]

it's a good chance that "Party Starter" could've flopped and "Switch" wouldn't have peaked so high, I doubt that it doesn't cost money to perform on TV, that's bull****, if that was true then KRS-ONE could perform his single on 106 & Park, right?  The record label pays the TV station to get their artist to perform on their shows, that's part of promotion, it's not charity.

←

I had to ask this because this has been at the back of my mind for awhile... Ted, are you related to KRS-ONE?

It seems like you reference KRS-ONE every time you see an opportunity...

I can imagine all of us in the "Caught in the Middle" forum taking about our favorite candy with you saying...

Yeah... KRS-ONE likes skittles... Chuck D likes skittles too. The problem with hip hop is that Emptv and BET like M&Ms, and only because they like Eminem... So now we have a whole bunch of kids running around poppin M&Ms without knowing that real hip hop is all about skittles and that hip hop originated with skittles.

But really, are you related to KRS-ONE?

[bigted]

Hey I mention KRS-ONE 'cause he's the most known artist on independent labels, I could easily say MF Doom, Hieroglyphics, Supastition, or Masta Ace as an example for this, they won't let independent artists perform on 106 & Park 'cause they don't have the money to pay the station to play their songs or get their videos on, in fact I found a post on the okayplayer board and a few other hip-hop boards where they talked about how certain independent artists are banned from BET, it's a big list that KRS-ONE tops, Del, Jean Grae, De La Soul, and MF Doom are also on that list, they didn't let Common on when he was an independent artist, it's a buisiness homie, whoever has the most money sells the most, there's no integrity, Will wants to sell albums the honest way but it's not working! lol, I wish I was related to KRS-ONE, I'd be putting out an album right now if I was, then again after seein' what all my favorite artists go through, I might reconsider 'cause I don't want high blood pressure at 40, lol. If you know Will why don't you call him up and tell him to put "Party Starter" out now? I mean just 'cause "Party Starter" is more thought provoking than "Switch" doesn't mean it'll do better than "Switch", at this point it'll be a flop if it doesn't get into the top 10 'cause the album'll fall off the charts if it does. lol, let him do his job, you act like you're his manager or something, you don't know what it's like in the music industry, I don't know it either all the way, but I know a good idea from listening to conscious rap 'cause you actually learn something from it, like I said in my signature, their music is like a class, why not talk about it, it's better than making a million posts about why 50 cent, Mike Jones, Boyz In The Hood, Eminem, etc. is wack, instead of people complaining about how wack 50 cent is people should buy Will's album, Common, De La Soul, Slick Rick, Hieroglyphics, KRS etc., I focus on positive more than negative, we all have choices, and when "Party Starter" comes out it comes out, he's been in the industry 20 years, damn it, he could end losing more money if he overpromotes and the album still doesn't go platinum, he's doing what's best for him, as long as it's not your money you don't care right?!! I think we made our points already, why can't we just lock up this topic? Whatever happens at this point happens and we'll leave it at that!

Edited July 31, 2005 by bigted

[MaxFly]

Hey I mention KRS-ONE 'cause he's the most known artist on independent labels, I could easily say MF Doom, Hieroglyphics, Supastition, or Masta Ace as an example for this, they won't let independent artists perform on 106 & Park 'cause they don't have the money to pay the station to play their songs or get their videos on,  in fact I found a post on the okayplayer board and a few other hip-hop boards where they talked about how certain independent artists are banned from BET, it's a big list that KRS-ONE tops, Del, Jean Grae,  De La Soul, and MF Doom are also on that list, they didn't let Common on when he was an independent artist, it's a buisiness homie, whoever has the most money sells the most, there's no integrity, Will wants to sell albums the honest way but it's not working! lol, I wish I was related to KRS-ONE, I'd be putting out an album right now if I was, then again after seein' what all my favorite artists go through, I might reconsider 'cause I don't want high blood pressure at 40, lol. If you know Will why don't you call him up and tell him to put "Party Starter" out now? I mean just 'cause "Party Starter" is more thought provoking than "Switch" doesn't mean it'll do better than "Switch", at this point it'll be a flop if it doesn't get into the top 10 'cause the album'll fall off the charts if it does.  lol, let him do his job, you act like you're his manager or something, you don't know what it's like in the music industry, I don't know it either all the way, but I know a good idea from listening to conscious rap 'cause you actually learn something from it, like I said in my signature, their music is like a class, why not talk about it, it's better than making a million posts about why 50 cent, Mike Jones, Boyz In The Hood, Eminem, etc. is wack, instead of people complaining about how wack 50 cent is people should buy Will's album, Common, De La Soul, Slick Rick, Hieroglyphics, KRS etc., I focus on positive more than negative, we all have choices, and when "Party Starter" comes out it comes out, he's been in the industry 20 years, damn it, he could end losing more money if he overpromotes and the album still doesn't go platinum, he's doing what's best for him, as long as it's not your money you don't care right?!!  I think we made our points already, why can't we just lock up this topic? Whatever happens at this point happens and we'll leave it at that!

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1.

I don't know Will, nor have I ever claimed to know him or any of the people he works with. However, this is a message board about Will and Jeff where people are encouraged to discuss a variety of topics... including Will and Jeff. If you are trying to liken my observation that you mention KRS-ONE quite a bit to me talking about Will quite a bit... I have to remind you that this is a JJFP message board... where most if not all of us come to talk about... Will. Now if I knew Will, best believe that he would know my feelings about the Party Starter release just as I am sure if you knew KRS-ONE, you'd mention him even more than you already do...

2.

People in general like Party Starter. That's the general concensus. We've gone back and forth for a few pages now, yet you still haven't provided a plausible reason as to why it is better to release Party Starter now than to release it a month to a month and a half ago...

So you release it a month ago and it flops... you release it now and it flops... Wouldn't it be better to have released it a month ago so that Will and Co. would still have options while the album sales were still fairly decent and people still had interest in the album?

Now if it does well, which you have already gone on record as saying that you doubt will happen, it would still have been a help to the album because, again, it would work to garner more interest and buzz around the album when album sales were still decent and people were still interested if not convinced about buying it.

You've mentioned that an earlier release of Party Starter may have prevented Will form appearing on various television shows... How did you even come to that conclusion? Do you have any proof that Will paid to appear at the Live 8 or any of the earlier shows he did in June? If so, and Overbrook is so strapped for cash, why is it that they filmed the Party Starter video in June? It just seems that you're throwing out ideas to support your point, but I'm not even sure what your point is anymore...

3.

We can blame the industry all we want... they are indeed largely to blame concerning the current state of hip hop, but I'm not talking about the industry's short commings making it impossible for Lost and Found to reach 5x.

I'm talking about things Will and Co. could have done to make Lost and Found more successful than it currently is. Lost and Found, even with the indiustry imposed limitations, can do better than it has done so far.

Let me make this clear... Lets say that on a scale from 1-10, the "industry" stipulates that I can only atain a 5 because of its bias towards me... If I'm doing my thing, I shouldn't be worried about the 6-10 the industry is preventing me from getting... I should work to attain the 5, and then worry about the rest after I have obtained the 5. But if I'm only at a 3, I haven't even attained what the industry has limited me to even though I can indeed reach that 5 if I take the necessary steps...

That's where Lost and Found is... it's at a 3 where as, even with the industry limitations, it could have attained a 5 with better planning and measured steps...

I believe that an earlier release of Party Starter would have helped it on the road to attain that 5.

[bigted]

Come on man, I ain't the only one on this board that like KRS-ONE, many peeps on this board like him too, it isn't like giving props to 50 Cent when nobody here likes him, I thought we were ol' school fans here, I don't just talk about KRS-ONE, I talk about MC Hammer, LL Cool J, Public Enemy, Slick Rick, Kurtis Blow, Big Daddy Kane, etc., well if we ain't allowed to talk about our favorite artists I won't post here anymore! btw, remember that Will says: "I don't follow everybody when it's time to rap", he could easily get 20 guest appearances on his album, release 5 videos at once but that'd be sellin' out to what everyone else is doing, Will stands up for what he believes in and I respect him for that!