NBA News..

[Vipa]

The most recent I cna think of is the 2000 Western Conference Finals, Game 7. Portland being one Game away from the Finals, lead by like, 13 at the end of the 3rd and some how, LA Makes this big Comeback, to win, go to the Finals, and get the first of their 3 back to back to back titles.

Since then, portland was never the same again. Then there was 2004, where Portland almost beat LA, in OT, but Kobe hit a shot to force Double OT. Portland kept it lcose in double OT, and they we're up by 2 with 1 second left. Payton inbounds to kobe, Ruben patterson jumps to block, but Kobe Banked a damn 3, Giving The Lakers a win. In Portland. It was painful.

Edited September 28, 2005 by Vipa

[kbfprince]

Oh yeah. Sweet memories. :yeah: The second shot in 04 Kobe actually shot it straight in over the outstretched arms of Shareef, and the bank forced the first OT if I'm not mistaking. Portland won the last meeting in 05 though, lets see how it plays out this season. :pony:

[MaxFly]

The article certainly paints a different picture from what Phil's book touched on and what's been assumed to be the cause of the Shaq/Kobe/Phil dispute, and it definitely paints Bryant in a more flattering light (though he still has his shortcomings).

I haven't been too high on Shaq ever since the "I got injured on company time" quote. What really surprised me was that no one really said anything about it, especially Phil. It was always clear that he pandered to Shaq, who wouldn't... but wow... For all those "Kobe is selfish" people...

At the same time, Jackson leveled a variety of public attacks at Bryant during those years. At one point, Jackson told reporters that Bryant had sabotaged his own high school games to make himself look like a star, a comment that brought howls of protest from Bryant’s high school coach.

Despite the situation, Bryant kept his anger under control, Winter said, until the 2003-04 NBA season. It was a contract year for both Bryant and Jackson, and the coach responded with a media campaign to discredit the guard. It culminated with Jackson’ book, The Last Season, that depicted Bryant as a selfish and uncoachable player.

Jackson had worked behind the secenses several times in not-so-subtle ways to get Bryant traded. But in January 2004, he decided on the direct approach, Jackson went to owner Jerry Buss and told him he could no longer coach the team if Bryant remained.

Having witnessed the unfolding behind-the-scenes drama over five years, Lakers owner Jerry Buss told Jackson that was fine; his services would no longer be needed.

Stunned, Jackson abruptly changed his approach with Bryant. Suddenly, the coach began trying to have a relationship with Bryant, Winter said. And Bryant responded in kind.

“But it was too late,” Winter said.

[rcpbball30]

Shaq is way more of a team player than Kobe will ever be, which was quite evident last season, when the Heat came within a game of the NBA Finals, while the Lakers dropped from an NBA Finals appearance to last place.

[MaxFly]

Shaq is way more of a team player than Kobe will ever be, which was quite evident last season, when the Heat came within a game of the NBA Finals, while the Lakers dropped from an NBA Finals appearance to last place.

I was waiting for someone to bite. Read the article again and tell me if it's really all Kobe or most of Kobe's fault as people have been trying to say for months and years. Remember, a lot of these are Tex Winter's words and quotes.

Team player... What kind of team player says that they were injured on company time and will get better on company time when they had the opportunity to take 2 months out of the summer to get fully healthy again? What kind of team player comes into the season out of shape and tries to use the season to get into shape, leaving the burden on his fellow teammates?

You brought up Miami. They had a great season last year, after getting into the playoffs the year before, without Shaq. Does anyone wanna argue that Dwayne Wade, Eddie Jones, Damon Jones and Udonis Haslem had nothing to do with getting Miami to where it was last year. Last year's Miami team was led by Dwayne Wade, not Shaq. He did everything for that team while having excellent players surrounding him. The Lakers should have insisted that Dwayne Wade was included with the trade, or no deal. Odom, Wade, and Butler... or Grant... for Shaq... but we know that Miami would never make that trade because Wade is the cornerstone of that franchise, not Shaq. I'm sure Pat Riley made it abundantly clear to Shaq when he arrived there last year. All Shaq had to do was show up healthy and play.

You brought up last year's Lakers team. The Lakers were in the playoffs for the better part of the season last year until their starters went down. They went into the season with only one starter from their previous season. Even George was injured. They lost their coach halfway through the season and completely switched up their offense to the triangle... and this was on the fly since none of their main offensive players other than Kobe knew the triangle. It was the perfect storm. Everything went wrong that could have gone wrong... On top of all of that, Kobe still averaged 6 assists and 5.9 rebounds while initiating the offense, getting his points, being injured, and not trying to faint while playing defense. The "Kobe is selfish" argument really doesn't hold any water when it's scrutinized.

Jackson astutely read that he faced a more severe choice in Los Angeles. The situation dictated that he could not be close to both Laker stars. So he made a logical choice, according to Winter. “Very early in our time in Los Angeles, Phil made the decision to go with Shaq. And he made it clear to Kobe and the press and everyone else that it was Shaq’s team. He made it clear he was far more interested in accommodating Shaq than Kobe. And Kobe seemed to accept this.”

Winter, however, began to have concerns immediately. He said he told Jackson that he seemed intent on making Bryant his “whipping boy,” the player on which the coach traditionally takes out all of his frustration. Winter told Jackson that making a budding young superstar a whipping boy wasn’t a good idea.

[JamesUK]

The heat are gonna crash and burn this season, with all the hype around them it's all set up to happen.

[Vipa]

They're both tema players, and while Kobe is Clutch, and the Leader, he does need to get his team involved a little more. he tries to do to much, and yea he gets a good ammount of APG, but loook at that Turnover Ratio. when he's double teamed, too many time s i've seen him just try to throw one up, so he can be the hero. Needs to stop that.

[kbfprince]

Who else on the Lakers right now can step up and hit the last shot? I've watched tons of Laker games, everytime there's a last shot situation or if the shot clock is winding down EVERYONE gives the ball to Kobe. Who's gonna take the shot? Odom? He's too assertive. Atkins and Butler were the other scorer last year, but they still differed to Kobe. Jones, George, and Cook are good outside shooters but by no means clutch players. And the "hero" thing has gotten old, like Maxfly alluded to.

[MaxFly]

They're both tema players, and while Kobe is Clutch, and the Leader, he does need to get his team involved a little more. he tries to do to much, and yea he gets a good ammount of APG, but loook at that Turnover Ratio. when he's double teamed, too many time s i've seen him just try to throw one up, so he can be the hero. Needs to stop that.

Yeah. Why do you think his turnover ratio is what it is? Who was the Laker's playmaker? Kobe doesn't play off the ball. That's by the coach's design, not his. The problem is, he's not only their playmaker, he's also their leading scorer, so he's looking to get teammates easy points while trying to add his own offense as well.

Also, about Kobe getting double teamed and throwing one up...

Name one of these many times... Lol, I'd try to stay away from the Detroit-Lakers series by the way...

By the way, what do you think about the excerpt from the book?

[bigted]

I doubt that Kobe could lead the Lakers to the Finals without Shaq, I think Shaq has a better chance of leading the Heat to the Finals without Kobe, he's the reason why the Lakers won 3 straight rings and when he was hurt in the Finals in 2004 against the Pistons they folded.

[MaxFly]

I think that with better players surrounding him and a good coach, he can lead the Lakers to the Finals. I don't think anyone would want to argue that the Lakers are built for a championship run this year or next, but if aquisitions like Bynum and Brown work out and players like Walton, Cook, and Mihm are able to flourish, they can at least make the playoffs. Now lets say in 2 years, the Lakers pick up Kevin Garnett, Garnett may not be Shaq... but the possibilities are interesting, and barring injury or a decline in skills, it's highly likely that Kobe would be the leader of that team, especially since Kevin Garnett has a tendency to defer. With a duo like Bryant/Garnett, the Lakers would go far.

As for Shaq, the Heat got the good end of the deal. They were good enough to lose players and still remain viable. Caron Butler I believe spent most of that year injured and Brian Grant was hardly effective with Odom being the only one of the three playing a significant role in Miami. The Heat got to the second round of the playoffs the year before they aquired Shaq. Now after the trade, Shaq had Wade and was surrounded with number of other players who could shoot and were decent players even without him. Now if the Lakers had managed to trade Shaq to the Celtics for Paul Pierce and a few other players, or to New Orleans, or to Charlotte, perhaps even to Orlando... things would be different. Comparing Shaq's Heat to Kobe's Lakers is hard to do, and as good as the east has gotten as of late, the West still has more of the talent.

Also, Shaq is a big reason why the Lakers won three rings, however, he isn't the only reason. If you were to look back at the 2000-2001 post season, the Lakers swept through the whole Western Conference and then won the title, only losing one game to Philly. That was mainly Kobe. He especially torched the Spurs... badly, Bruce Bowen and all. While Shaq did play well in the majority of the games, it was clear that Kobe was the difference maker. Even going further, if one were to give out playoff MVP trophies for the entirety of the 00-01 and 01-02 post seasons the likely winner would be Kobe, not Shaq, with Shaq taking the 99-00 post season MVP award. Before anyone counters with, "Well, Shaq won all of the finals MVP awards," take note of the centers he played in those NBA finals...

[rcpbball30]

Yes, Kobe contributed to the Lakers winning it all those 3 years. He is one of the most talented players in the league, but he is not a dominant force like Shaq. Kobe's shooting percentage went down almost 10% last year. The reason for that, he did not have Shaq drawing double teams down low and kicking it out to him. Shaq is a player you can build around. He is an unselfish player, but he understands their has to be a steady hierarchy in the way the team is ran. The way teams win nowadays are inside-out. The Lakers won because Shaq was the main option, going for 40 and 20 nearly every finals game. Look at last season, Shaq leaves and the Lakers drop from NBA Finalists to last place, behind the Clippers, even. On the other hand, he brings the Heat to one game of the finals while being injured the entire playoffs, and only getting help from D-Wade, the rest of the team was pretty much useless. Now that they have a better supporting cast, Shaq will keep them in line and their eyes on the prize.

[kbfprince]

Where did you get that Kobe's shooting percentage went down almost 10 percent? He shot .438 in 03-04 and .433 in 04-05. His 3 point percentage improved, his FT went down a little.

Good points on Heat, I wouldn't say last year's heat were 'useless' besides Wade; Eddie Jones, Damon Jones, Haslem etc. Shaq was dominant during the 3 peat, but it is questionable whether he can continue to dominate; he is getting older.

[bigted]

Alonzo Mourning had a few good games when Shaq didn't play in the playoffs, I think it's important to have a good inside game yes, that's what the Lakers were lacking last year, as great of a player Kobe Bryant is he ain't playing center, you need to have a dominant center to compete, especially in the Western Conference, in the East you could sort of win games without having one but you need to have a strong one to get to the Finals, there's only a handful of them in the East like Jermaine O'neal, Shaq, and the Wallaces, that's why they're teams did so well last year. btw, you can't use injuries as an exuse, every team has them.

[Vipa]

Eddy Curry traded to the Knicks sources Say...

Possible trade might be Tim Thomas, Michael Sweetney,maybe a 1st round pick, and Ariza or Lee...

Damn, seems like NY Is giving a lot for curry.