Kanye West causes controversy on NBC

[Cozmo D]

I thought the whole "refugee" thing was ridiculous.. american people..who have  have to evacuate a city because of a hurricane are refugees now???  :shrug:  :sick:

←

And the connotations of the "refugee" label is now becoming apparent, as the governor of Texas is now talking about how his state cannot take in anymore "refugees". Imagine, an American state turning away American citizens. :ponder:

[Hero1]

I thought the whole "refugee" thing was ridiculous.. american people..who have  have to evacuate a city because of a hurricane are refugees now???  :shrug:  :sick:

←

And the connotations of the "refugee" label is now becoming apparent, as the governor of Texas is now talking about how his state cannot take in anymore "refugees". Imagine, an American state turning away American citizens. :ponder:

←

yeah its easy to say we cant take anymore refugees than we cant take anymore american citizens isnt it... :help:

[Chief]

Yea..i was stunned when i heard them using that....it brought back memories of Cambodia and their "Refugees" and such...

Edited September 7, 2005 by Chief

[MaxFly]

I don't know about "some of you people" but I understand completely what was going on.  What YOU don't seem to understand is that black people realize that when the orders to shoot to kill are pointed in our direction we all tend to look alike.  Almost every black American understands this, and Kanye was simply voicing this concern.

No spin. Kanye voiced an accusation. Not a concern. If Martial Law was to be fully implemented in NO, shoot to kill orders would have been the same. The shoot to kill orders were passed down by the governor of Louisiana, not the federal government. The decision is certainly not arbitrary. There is hard evidence that the step was needed, regardless of the race of the people. If buildings set on fire by arsonists and shootings taking place in the streets aren't evidence of the need for such a measure, what is? Troops aren't roaming around shooting people taking food. They are trying to keep the peace in a place where lawlessness is hindering search and rescue efforts. There have been no reports of troops shooting victims, innocent people, or people taking food. I have heard of troops shooting and killing men who shot at navy core of engineer workers and stopping arsonists. In hindsight, they have done an excellent and fair job in reestablishing some level of peace in NO. Why is it that people are afraid to look at the whole picture.

I myself have not said and am not saying that ANYONE was racist.  I would appreciate if you read what I write instead of making assumptive interpretations.  What I am pointing out are the RACIAL IMPLICATIONS that are rife within the New Orleans situation.  There may not have been a single racist person involved or a single racist act committed, but the entire SITUATION in New Orleans was OVERTLY, YET PERCEPTIBLY RACIST!

They were almost all black, and were left to suffer and die for DAYS!  They were almost all black, and those who COULD have saved them REFUSED because the situation was dangerous.  They were almost all black, and the media and many of their fellow Americans are calling them refugees.  They were almost all black, and THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES first ignores their suffering, then addresses it with an unmoving, smirking speech about law and order.  Of course, white people will then say "but it could have happened to anybody"... but black people will answer, "but naturally it happened to us!"

So then I ask you, how was the mayor of NO's slow response prior to and after the disaster OVERTLY RACIST. HE IS BLACK!

If the entire situation in New Orleans is overtly racist, his action, or lack thereof have to be grouped with the rest of the failures as overtly racist. However, the problem with this is that he is black. Now if he were of a different race, it is almost a certaintly that someone somewhere would attribute his failure to act immediately as having to do with race.

What you don't seem to understand is that racism is so deeply imbedded within our culture that it no longer needs racists to survive.  Racism does NOT have to be intentional.  Racism does NOT have to be institutional.  Racism does NOT have to be personal.  Racism does NOT even have to be directed.  Racism is so imbedded in the crux of the American System and the depths of the American Psyche that it does not even have to be implemented, it simply implements itself!

Unfortunately, what you don't seem to understand is that there is no evidence of racism in the events and failures in New Orleans. Your argument seems to intimate that racism is "so imbedded in the crux of the American System" that even if there is no evidence for such an accusation in the case of New Orleans, racism is what we will blame the failures of the local and federal governments of anyway; because black people are involved, racism has to play a role.

[Cozmo D]

I don't know about "some of you people" but I understand completely what was going on.  What YOU don't seem to understand is that black people realize that when the orders to shoot to kill are pointed in our direction we all tend to look alike.  Almost every black American understands this, and Kanye was simply voicing this concern.

No spin. Kanye voiced an accusation. Not a concern. If Martial Law was to be fully implemented in NO, shoot to kill orders would have been the same. The shoot to kill orders were passed down by the governor of Louisiana, not the federal government. The decision is certainly not arbitrary. There is hard evidence that the step was needed, regardless of the race of the people. If buildings set on fire by arsonists and shootings taking place in the streets aren't evidence of the need for such a measure, what is? Troops aren't roaming around shooting people taking food. They are trying to keep the peace in a place where lawlessness is hindering search and rescue efforts. There have been no reports of troops shooting victims, innocent people, or people taking food. I have heard of troops shooting and killing men who shot at navy core of engineer workers and stopping arsonists. In hindsight, they have done an excellent and fair job in reestablishing some level of peace in NO. Why is it that people are afraid to look at the whole picture.

I myself have not said and am not saying that ANYONE was racist.  I would appreciate if you read what I write instead of making assumptive interpretations.  What I am pointing out are the RACIAL IMPLICATIONS that are rife within the New Orleans situation.  There may not have been a single racist person involved or a single racist act committed, but the entire SITUATION in New Orleans was OVERTLY, YET PERCEPTIBLY RACIST!

They were almost all black, and were left to suffer and die for DAYS!  They were almost all black, and those who COULD have saved them REFUSED because the situation was dangerous.  They were almost all black, and the media and many of their fellow Americans are calling them refugees.  They were almost all black, and THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES first ignores their suffering, then addresses it with an unmoving, smirking speech about law and order.  Of course, white people will then say "but it could have happened to anybody"... but black people will answer, "but naturally it happened to us!"

So then I ask you, how was the mayor of NO's slow response prior to and after the disaster OVERTLY RACIST. HE IS BLACK!

If the entire situation in New Orleans is overtly racist, his action, or lack thereof have to be grouped with the rest of the failures as overtly racist. However, the problem with this is that he is black. Now if he were of a different race, it is almost a certaintly that someone somewhere would attribute his failure to act immediately as having to do with race.

What you don't seem to understand is that racism is so deeply imbedded within our culture that it no longer needs racists to survive.  Racism does NOT have to be intentional.  Racism does NOT have to be institutional.  Racism does NOT have to be personal.  Racism does NOT even have to be directed.  Racism is so imbedded in the crux of the American System and the depths of the American Psyche that it does not even have to be implemented, it simply implements itself!

Unfortunately, what you don't seem to understand is that there is no evidence of racism in the events and failures in New Orleans. Your argument seems to intimate that racism is "so imbedded in the crux of the American System" that even if there is no evidence for such an accusation in the case of New Orleans, racism is what we will blame the failures of the local and federal governments of anyway; because black people are involved, racism has to play a role.

←

I just addressed everything you replied in the very post you replied to. Obviously, you don't believe that anything is racist or has racial connotations unless somebody is burning a cross in the middle of it. Damm shame, because you appear to be intelligent. I won't waste my time with you any further.

[Chief]

oh ****....

[MaxFly]

I just addressed everything you replied in the very post you replied to.  Obviously, you don't believe that anything is racist or has racial connotations unless somebody is burning a cross in the middle of it.  Damm shame, because you appear to be intelligent.  I won't waste my time with you any further.

The real shame is that black people will always look at the world through race tinted glasses, not because they are forced to but because that's what they choose to rely on. Things are always made into an issue of race, irregardless of the facts, irregardless of the situation.

The problem is not that we stand up for equality in all facets of society. It is not that we create controversy when controversy is what is needed. It is not that we show outrage and speak the truth when the situation calls for it. Those are noble and courageous things. Those are the things that many of our predecessors fought and sacrificed their lives for. The problem arises when we, in our quest to be "enlightened," cheapen their sacrifices with ignorant accusations and unproven theories, when we let our bias get in the way of our better judgement. The problem is when we think the worst without proof or just rationale and when we create controversy at a time when it is the last thing the situation calls for.

If we, as a people are to conquer racism, we need to remain vigilant, yet at the same time, we need to remain credible. If we cry "racism" where there is none, if we scream "discrimination" where there is none, looking foolish on national television isn't the biggest thing we'll have to worry about.

[bigted]

Well TI and David Banner are backing up what Kanye said, Will's probably gonna say something soon too I bet, Chuck D said something in his song too about Bush, to say that Kanye's wrong is dissin' the entire hip-hop community, I thought you loved hip-hop? If you listened to hip-hop music over the past few years you'd hear a lot of rappers criticising Bush! All men are created equal my ass, 400 years of blacks being on the plantation serving white people is equal? Black people selling crack to survive while Uncle Sam white conservatives and Uncle Tom blacks gets rich is equal? Our voice counts in society, white rock stars could speak up so why can't rappers? I just wanted to post this article here, if you want all my opinions just look at my other posts 'cause I'm done discussing this:

"T.I., David Banner Get Behind Kanye's Bush Comments

09.06.2005

For years, rappers have been saying the same thing, Banner says.

Kanye West on NBC's "A Concert for Hurricane Relief" on Friday

Photo: Matt Peyton

With seven words on live primetime TV, Kanye West pushed the world's attention to a new dimension of the tragedy surrounding Hurricane Katrina, sparking a flurry of debate and an army of support.

"George Bush doesn't care about black people."

Those words — spoken by Kanye during an emotional, unscripted rant during Friday night's hurricane benefit telethon on NBC — provided the crest of a growing wave of criticism against a relief effort that left hundreds of thousands without food, water, electricity or hope for five full days (see "Jay-Z, Diddy, Others Reach Out To Disaster Victims; Kanye West Attacks Bush During Telethon"). They also tapped into some long-standing concerns about the current administration.

"We've been screaming this for five years," David Banner said Tuesday (September 6) of Kanye's remarks. "You listen to your David Banners, Dead Prez, listen to rap music period. This is what rappers have been screaming all the time. The problem is America concentrates more on our cuss words. They don't hear the pain in the music all the time. You just finally had somebody who has the power Kanye has, who said it at the right time."

(What do you think about Kanye West's statement? Do you think the federal government's response has been adequate? Take our poll.)

West certainly isn't the first member of the hip-hop community to speak out against the current administration. Many feel the "compassionate conservative" president has been uncaring and negligent in using federal resources to help Americans in need.

"We can't wait around for the government to help. We're not waiting, we're taking action," Diddy told MTV News on Thursday after donating $1 million to the Red Cross with Jay-Z. "We can find money to bomb people oversees, but not to help our brothers and sisters?"

"It's been seen that the government don't really give a f--- about our situation," T.I. said Tuesday, alleging that if rich white communities were hit as hard as the poor black communities have been, Bush would have ordered aid in a more timely manner. "All those people who are down there without homes and shelter, those are folks from the 'hood. That's the urban community."

"I'm like, 'What is it?' " Twista said Tuesday. " 'What are we looked at as? Do you look at us as less than human?' The response said something. Any other people, people [suffering a catastrophe,] you get people from all over the world to come and jump right on [the problem]. But you get mostly poor and black people, and we get the slow response."

Bush has responded to the growing criticism by conceding that the government's initial response to the disaster was unacceptable. And congressional officials said Bush intends to seek around $40 billion for the next phase of relief (Congress approved $10.5 billion in relief funding last week). Meanwhile, lawmakers are vowing to investigate what delayed aid in the first several days after the hurricane (see "New Orleans Begins Pump-Out Process; Mayor Says Death Toll May Reach 10,000").

T.I., Young Jeezy and hip-hop publication Juice are teaming up to help David Banner's own relief effort via his Heal the Hood Foundation. Banner has been in Mississippi personally giving out food, water and clothing he purchased himself. The hyperactive MC said he's witnessed the unimaginable, like dead babies floating in water.

Banner, Jeezy and T.I. have been putting together an all-star fundraiser at Atlanta's Phillips Arena, and T.I. helped raise more than $265,000 Monday when he went on an Atlanta radio station and solicited donations. Among the contributors were Warner Music Group President Kevin Liles and producers Jermaine Dupri and Dallas Austin, who donated $25,000 apiece.

"I called everybody's bluff who be talking all that ballin' sh--," T.I. said. "Popping all them bottles in the club ... talking about how much girls and jewelry and cars they got. Let's see how much money they've got for a good cause. Basically, I told everybody to put their money where their mouths are, and if you ain't got no money to give to the cause, I don't want to hear that sh-- no more."

Twista is working with Budweiser to hold a benefit concert at the House of Blues in Chicago. Bump J and Do or Die will also be performing. The fastest-rapping MC in hip-hop said he feels it's up to black people to help their own rather than relying on the government.

"They've been bogus, so what is everybody so shocked about?" he said. "I feel the response was real slow, but I look at my own harder than I look at them. I feel like us as black folks were supposed to stop what we was doing, put all that sh-- down and get these [disaster victims] straight."

While Banner continues to help aid the survivors of Katrina, he's still seething over what he feels is a betrayal by his government.

"I don't want to hear the national anthem, dude," he said. "Don't play the national anthem around me no more."

Banner said people can donate to his Heal the Hood Foundation by credit card at HealTheHood.com, and checks can be mailed to P.O. Box 13185, Jackson, MS 39236

[Cozmo D]

I just addressed everything you replied in the very post you replied to.  Obviously, you don't believe that anything is racist or has racial connotations unless somebody is burning a cross in the middle of it.  Damm shame, because you appear to be intelligent.  I won't waste my time with you any further.

The real shame is that black people will always look at the world through race tinted glasses, not because they are forced to but because that's what they choose to rely on. Things are always made into an issue of race, irregardless of the facts, irregardless of the situation.

The problem is not that we stand up for equality in all facets of society. It is not that we create controversy when controversy is what is needed. It is not that we show outrage and speak the truth when the situation calls for it. Those are noble and courageous things. Those are the things that many of our predecessors fought and sacrificed their lives for. The problem arises when we, in our quest to be "enlightened," cheapen their sacrifices with ignorant accusations and unproven theories, when we let our bias get in the way of our better judgement. The problem is when we think the worst without proof or just rationale and when we create controversy at a time when it is the last thing the situation calls for.

If we, as a people are to conquer racism, we need to remain vigilant, yet at the same time, we need to remain credible. If we cry "racism" where there is none, if we scream "discrimination" where there is none, looking foolish on national television isn't the biggest thing we'll have to worry about.

←

Son, please do not presume to lecture me on race, something that you obviously know very little about. Get out and see the world first, or at least go out and experience some of the many different cultures that make up this great nation of ours. You were born after most of the great racial battles of this nation were fought and won, so don't think that the books you've read or the TV shows that you've seen have equipped you to tell those of us who have witnessed and fought in those battles the way things are. Yes, it's true that intelligence is not measured in years, but it's also true that experience is the best teacher. The world can seem mighty simple and safe behind that monitor in your nice little room in your mommy and daddy's house.

Do not presume to battle intellects with me either.

By the way... irregardless is not a word.

[MaxFly]

Well TI and David Banner are backing up what Kanye said, Will's probably gonna say something soon too I bet, Chuck D said something in his song too about Bush, to say that Kanye's wrong is dissin' the entire hip-hop community, I thought you loved hip-hop? If you listened to hip-hop music over the past few years you'd hear a lot of rappers criticising Bush!

←

I don't know if you've read through the past 20something pages, but it seems that you haven't, so I'll say what I've said several time before, again.

I'm with everyone, not just rappers, who are criticizing the president for his slow response in getting aid to those in the south. However, I refuse to heap all of the blame on him and allow FEMA, the department of homeland security, the govenor of Louisiana and the mayor of New Orleans to escape acountability. If the people at FEMA aren't doing their jobs, they need to be fired, because saving lives after a disaster is their job. If the govenor or the mayor didn't take the necessary steps to save lives before and after the disaster, they need to be held accountable. If you want to want to focus on the President and let these people off the hook, the proper lessons from this disaster will not be learned.

Why did the President respond so slowly?

Why did FEMA respond so slowly?

Why did the govenor not allow the federal government to take control when they asked?

Why did the mayor call for an evacuation of the city so late and why didn't he use all of the resources that he had to evacuate the citizens of his city.

All of these questions need to be answered, but they won't be if we can't look at the President, and then beyond him.

[MaxFly]

Son, please do not presume to lecture me on race, something that you obviously know very little about.  Get out and see the world first, or at least go out and experience some of the many different cultures that make up this great nation of ours.  You were born after most of the great racial battles of this nation were fought and won, so don't think that the books you've read or the TV shows that you've seen have equipped you to tell those of us who have witnessed and fought in those battles the way things are.  Yes, it's true that intelligence is not measured in years, but it's also true that experience is the best teacher.  The world can seem mighty simple and safe behind that monitor in your nice little room in your mommy and daddy's house.

Do not presume to battle intellects with me either.

By the way... irregardless is not a word.

irregardless

adv : disregardless; regardless; In spite of everything; without regard to drawbacks; a combination of irrespective and regardless sometimes used humorously

It's not standard English, but it is indeed a word... one that's actually quite widely used to stress points, as I was doing, irrespective of the obvious double negative. It's not a word I would use in a thesis or on a job application, but then again, this is a Jazzy Jeff-Fresh Prince messageboard...

Now I understand that the matters that we have been discussing can be quite volatile, but don't get too excited and lets not make personal attacks. At the end of the day, this is still the internet. You will have your strong beliefs, I will have mine, but never assume that you know anything about me and never presume to lecture me. You have no idea where I've been, what I've seen, what I've experienced or who I've experienced it with. No idea where I've traveled or what experiences have brought me to the place that I am now. Please don't pretend to. It simply leads to a back and forth that adds nothing to the original debate.

As for experience being the best teacher, that's actually true, however I offer a caveat. Even as some students fail to learn from the best teachers, some people fail to learn even from the most profound experiences.

It's not so much having the experiences as it is learning from them.

Intellectual judo is fun, but you don't really want to go in that direction with me. It wouldn't be fair for others who would much rather discuss the topic of this thread, and it wouldn't be fair to you.

[Cozmo D]

Son, please do not presume to lecture me on race, something that you obviously know very little about.  Get out and see the world first, or at least go out and experience some of the many different cultures that make up this great nation of ours.  You were born after most of the great racial battles of this nation were fought and won, so don't think that the books you've read or the TV shows that you've seen have equipped you to tell those of us who have witnessed and fought in those battles the way things are.  Yes, it's true that intelligence is not measured in years, but it's also true that experience is the best teacher.  The world can seem mighty simple and safe behind that monitor in your nice little room in your mommy and daddy's house.

Do not presume to battle intellects with me either.

By the way... irregardless is not a word.

irregardless

adv : disregardless; regardless; In spite of everything; without regard to drawbacks; a combination of irrespective and regardless sometimes used humorously

It's not standard English, but it is indeed a word... one that's actually quite widely used to stress points, as I was doing, irrespective of the obvious double negative. It's not a word I would use in a thesis or on a job application, but then again, this is a Jazzy Jeff-Fresh Prince messageboard...

Now I understand that the matters that we have been discussing can be quite volatile, but don't get too excited and lets not make personal attacks. At the end of the day, this is still the internet. You will have your strong beliefs, I will have mine, but never assume that you know anything about me and never presume to lecture me. You have no idea where I've been, what I've seen, what I've experienced or who I've experienced it with. No idea where I've traveled or what experiences have brought me to the place that I am now. Please don't pretend to. It simply leads to a back and forth that adds nothing to the original debate.

As for experience being the best teacher, that's actually true, however I offer a caveat. Even as some students fail to learn from the best teachers, some people fail to learn even from the most profound experiences.

It's not so much having the experiences as it is learning from them.

Intellectual judo is fun, but you don't really want to go in that direction with me. It wouldn't be fair for others who would much rather discuss the topic of this thread, and it wouldn't be fair to you.

←

Wouldn't be fair to me? Who's making assumptions now. Irregardless is a word just as much as nucular is. Bring it on kid! I was correcting my college professors 7 years before you were born!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Hero1]

its old skool vs new skool :lolsign: actually I think Coz is just arguing with a younger version of himself.. :woono: well carry on.. this should be interesting... :1-say-yes:

[MaxFly]

Wouldn't be fair to me? Who's making assumptions now. Irregardless is a word just as much as nucular is. Bring it on kid! I was correcting my college professors 7 years before you were born!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Maybe you should go back to school...

Nucular

Irregardless

Nice try though.

[MaxFly]

its old skool vs new skool  :lolsign: actually I think Coz is just arguing with a younger version of himself.. :woono:  well carry on.. this should be interesting...  :1-say-yes:

←

Instigator... :lolsign: :lolsign: