Kanye West causes controversy on NBC

[Cozmo D]

Approaching?  I'm already there kid!  You stink at math too?  Did you clean out the garage and take out the garbage like I told ya?  Where's your daddy already, you're boring me! :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

And yet you keep responding, 2 pages after you said you were done with me... Is your memory going already? This is exactly why they shouldn't let old people use the internet; they start talking like they're in a barbershop and they don't know when to stop.

←

I said I was done with you when I thought you were someone of intelligence who had his head stuck in the sand. Then I looked in your profile and realized that you were just someone of intelligence filled with the naiveté and ignorance of youth.

You are highly intelligent and pretty well educated as well, of that there is no doubt. But you also suffer from that common youthful disease that we all at one time or another fall victim to, you think that you know it all.

It was evident in our conversation when you answered my replies to your posts with the same exact points that I had replied to. This says that you refuse to consider my points, instead of asking me to further define them. I mistook that then for intentionally blind ignorance, often a permanent condition. Upon spying your age though I realized that it was in actuality youthful ignorance, which is usually quite temporary. So I figured that I would take this approach until you were ready to have a TWO-WAY conversation on the subject. In the meantime, I'll have some fun! :lolsign:

You see, I already know all about highly intelligent 21 year-olds, since I was one myself 25 years ago, and having raised one myself (now 22) as well. So, when you're ready, we can learn from each other. ;-)

Or, if you'd rather, we can continue this pissing contest. Just remember, I've had way more time to hone my pissing skills, young Jedi. :gettinjiggywitit:

Edited September 8, 2005 by Cozmo D

[MaxFly]

I said I was done with you when I thought you were someone of intelligence who had his head stuck in the sand.  Then I looked in your profile and realized that you were just someone of intelligence filled with the naiveté and ignorance of youth. 

You are highly intelligent and pretty well educated as well, of that there is no doubt.  But you also suffer from that common youthful disease that we all at one time or another fall victim to, you think that you know it all. 

It was evident in our conversation when you answered my replies to your posts with the same exact points that I had replied to.  This says that you refuse to consider my points, instead of asking me to further define them.  I mistook that then for intentionally blind ignorance, often a permanent condition.  Upon spying your age though I realized that it was in actuality youthful ignorance, which is usually quite temporary.  So I figured that I would take this approach until you were ready to have a TWO-WAY conversation on the subject.  In the meantime, I'll have some fun! :lolsign:

You see, I already know all about highly intelligent 21 year-olds, since I was one myself 25 years ago, and having raised one myself (now 22) as well.  So, when you're ready, we can learn from each other. ;-)

Or, if you'd rather, we can continue this pissing contest.  Just remember, I've had way more time to hone my pissing skills, young Jedi. :gettinjiggywitit:

Haha, that post almost looks like an olive branch...

I must agree that many of the youth today do believe that they know it all, oftentimes being insufferable as they dogmatically persist in their beliefs, even in the face of evidence to the contrary. That's not me (there's always more to learn), but if you have gleaned that from my post, it seems that I'll have to further clarify my points... I'll do that a little lower down.

In keeping with the topic of "know it alls" for a second, I must point out that while young people in general do carry around this attitude, it's not an isolated epidemic. Unfortunately, young people who think they know everything often grow up to be older people who... think they know everything. Our elders often simply think they know everything because they are older. In truth, knowledge is passed down from parent to child, older to younger, generation to generation. This is how prosperous societies have always worked. However, the older among us are often so focused on imparting knowledge that they forget that there is always something new to learn, even from the very youth they are imparting knowledge to.

Now that's not to group you with that lot Cozmo. I don't know you, so it would be overly presumptuous of me to characterize you as such. Indeed, you don't seem to be, and I look forward to our "learning from each other." However, I did feel the need to point out that the "know it all" epidemic is not isolated, if only to stand up for the youth a little.

Now about that post... You said that you addressed everything I replied to in the very same post. I'm not sure you understood what I posted, so I'll pull out some examples...

You said that Kanye was simply voicing his concern of black people being grouped together when troops were told to shoot to kill. I pointed out that it was more of an accusation, and you have to question whether he understood what the full situation was in NO, or whether he chose to ignore it and make his accusation anyway. From the statement he made, he didn't convey concern that innocents and criminals may be grouped together; rather, it seemed that he had already made up his mind as to why troops were going in with shoot to kill orders, or at the very least, made it sound that way. The whole issue of that statement seems to be one of perception, or more accurately, how he chose to perceive the situation. In the face of the shootings, the arson, the raping, and the looting, he chose to make it sound like troops would be entering the city to shoot black people indiscriminately rather than to simply restore order, scaring away those who would use the tragedy for their own personal gain. I listened to the govenor of Louisiana give the "shoot to kill" order. For all her tough talk of M16s, troops weren't going to go in to shoot people taking bread and water, and in hindsight, they haven't done that. They haven't grouped the innocent with the criminals.

If he wanted to convey his concern, he should have worded his statement as such or not said anything on the issue at all. Instead, at the very least, he made it sound as if he were accusing the govenor of giving the orders because of discrimination.

You made another statement to the effect... The entire situation in New Orleans was overtly (openly or obviously) racist.

I answered you with a question. If the entire situation is openly racist, where does the mayor of New Orleans stand in the whole equation. He has a fair share of blame in all of this, but he's black.

You said "...overtly, yet perceptively." When you used "overtly" did you mean "openly or obviously?" Is it that you just used the wrong word to express what you wanted to say? Did you want to say that it was not obvious, yet perceptible? I really am seeking to understand what you meant by that.

Something that is overt is generally perceptible; I didn't understand the use of yet in that sentence.

[Cozmo D]

I said I was done with you when I thought you were someone of intelligence who had his head stuck in the sand.  Then I looked in your profile and realized that you were just someone of intelligence filled with the naiveté and ignorance of youth. 

You are highly intelligent and pretty well educated as well, of that there is no doubt.  But you also suffer from that common youthful disease that we all at one time or another fall victim to, you think that you know it all. 

It was evident in our conversation when you answered my replies to your posts with the same exact points that I had replied to.  This says that you refuse to consider my points, instead of asking me to further define them.  I mistook that then for intentionally blind ignorance, often a permanent condition.  Upon spying your age though I realized that it was in actuality youthful ignorance, which is usually quite temporary.  So I figured that I would take this approach until you were ready to have a TWO-WAY conversation on the subject.  In the meantime, I'll have some fun! :lolsign:

You see, I already know all about highly intelligent 21 year-olds, since I was one myself 25 years ago, and having raised one myself (now 22) as well.  So, when you're ready, we can learn from each other. ;-)

Or, if you'd rather, we can continue this pissing contest.  Just remember, I've had way more time to hone my pissing skills, young Jedi. :gettinjiggywitit:

Haha, that post almost looks like an olive branch...

I must agree that many of the youth today do believe that they know it all, oftentimes being insufferable as they dogmatically persist in their beliefs, even in the face of evidence to the contrary. That's not me (there's always more to learn), but if you have gleaned that from my post, it seems that I'll have to further clarify my points... I'll do that a little lower down.

In keeping with the topic of "know it alls" for a second, I must point out that while young people in general do carry around this attitude, it's not an isolated epidemic. Unfortunately, young people who think they know everything often grow up to be older people who... think they know everything. Our elders often simply think they know everything because they are older. In truth, knowledge is passed down from parent to child, older to younger, generation to generation. This is how prosperous societies have always worked. However, the older among us are often so focused on imparting knowledge that they forget that there is always something new to learn, even from the very youth they are imparting knowledge to.

Now that's not to group you with that lot Cozmo. I don't know you, so it would be overly presumptuous of me to characterize you as such. Indeed, you don't seem to be, and I look forward to our "learning from each other." However, I did feel the need to point out that the "know it all" epidemic is not isolated, if only to stand up for the youth a little.

Now about that post... You said that you addressed everything I replied to in the very same post. I'm not sure you understood what I posted, so I'll pull out some examples...

You said that Kanye was simply voicing his concern of black people being grouped together when troops were told to shoot to kill. I pointed out that it was more of an accusation, and you have to question whether he understood what the full situation was in NO, or whether he chose to ignore it and make his accusation anyway. From the statement he made, he didn't convey concern that innocents and criminals may be grouped together; rather, it seemed that he had already made up his mind as to why troops were going in with shoot to kill orders, or at the very least, made it sound that way. The whole issue of that statement seems to be one of perception, or more accurately, how he chose to perceive the situation. In the face of the shootings, the arson, the raping, and the looting, he chose to make it sound like troops would be entering the city to shoot black people indiscriminately rather than to simply restore order, scaring away those who would use the tragedy for their own personal gain. I listened to the govenor of Louisiana give the "shoot to kill" order. For all her tough talk of M16s, troops weren't going to go in to shoot people taking bread and water, and in hindsight, they haven't done that. They haven't grouped the innocent with the criminals.

If he wanted to convey his concern, he should have worded his statement as such or not said anything on the issue at all. Instead, at the very least, he made it sound as if he were accusing the govenor of giving the orders because of discrimination.

You made another statement to the effect... The entire situation in New Orleans was overtly (openly or obviously) racist.

I answered you with a question. If the entire situation is openly racist, where does the mayor of New Orleans stand in the whole equation. He has a fair share of blame in all of this, but he's black.

You said "...overtly, yet perceptively." When you used "overtly" did you mean "openly or obviously?" Is it that you just used the wrong word to express what you wanted to say? Did you want to say that it was not obvious, yet perceptible? I really am seeking to understand what you meant by that.

Something that is overt is generally perceptible; I didn't understand the use of yet in that sentence.

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OK, this looks good. Unfortunately I'm stuck in an airport on some crappy Wifi, so I won't read all of it now. Let me just say that yes, it was an olive branch, one that is always extended in my posts, regardless of how combative they may get. Way more than winning an argument, I am interested in being correct, for that a dialogue has to happen. I do like my fun as much as the next guy though. :1-say-yes:

I'll hit this up when I get some daylight.

[MaxFly]

Crappy WiFi... It's like airports do it on purpose.

No rush. Holla when you get a chance.

[bigted]

"Leading blacks label Bush a disaster

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/344397p-293973c.html

Katrina's deluge may be draining, but the tide of African-American resentment toward President Bush seems higher than ever.

"Bush is a travesty," Magic Johnson told us yesterday at the Rev. Al Sharpton's Dream

Keepers Luncheon in Beverly Hills. "The White House let us all down - both blacks and whites."

"Hotel Rwanda" star Don Cheadle admitted that "the dogs are piling on the President." But, the Oscar nominee added, "I'm cool with it. I'm one more on the dog pile. How Bush handled this was an embarrassment."

"Bush sat there and fiddled in Crawford while New Orleans drowned," Sharpton said. "If someone had told him that it was heading to West Palm Beach, Fla., he would have stopped everything."

Def Jam chief Jay-Z told us yesterday he "100% supported" his hitmaker Kanye West, who shocked NBC execs Friday when he declared on a network telethon: "George Bush doesn't care about black people."

"When you're the commander in chief, you're responsible," Jay said from London, where he picked up British GQ's International Man of the Year Award (while denying reports that he just slipped an engagement ring on Beyoncé's finger). "Maybe it's the mayor or the governor to blame. But when you are the boss, it comes down on you."

Sean Combs, who flew to New Orleans yesterday, barely made it onto the same NBC broadcast. Producers, who didn't expect him, were making room in their lineup just as Kanye walked offstage. Hearing his Bush blast, Diddy told the fellow rapper: "Now they're definitely not going to let me go out there!"

P.S. The Neville Brothers, Elton John, Lenny Kravitz, Bette Midler and Rod Stewart will headline a New Orleans benefit concert at Madison Square Garden Sept. 20. They'll be joined by Big Easy legend Fats Domino, who was rescued from his home by boat."

Jay-Z makes a great point in there, sure the mayor or governor of New Orleans could be blamed some but Bush is supposed to be the biggest leader of them all so he deserves most of the blame.

[JamesUK]

By the way for UK people Kanye is on Jonathon Ross this friday coming up, should be interesting, seeing as what he said made the news here.

[bigted]

I found this long article posted by somebody on Public Enemy's board, it tells you what's really going on down there from victims who were there:

These postings are from a listserve for artists of African descent. One was posted by the cousin of the founder of this listserve. Another is a transcription of Charmaine Neville (Aaron Neville's daughter). Stories like the ones below contest the racist portrayals that we are all reading about, hearing, and viewing in the media.

With regards,

Danielle

###

i heard from my aunt last night that my cousin Denise

> made it out of New Orleans; she's at her brother's in

> Baton Rouge. from what she told me:

>

> her mother, a licensed practical nurse, was called in

> to work on Sunday night at Memorial Hospital

> (historically known as Baptist Hospital to those of us

> from N.O.). Denise decided to stay with her mother,

> her niece and grandniece (who is 2 years old); she

> figured they'd be safe at the hospital. they went to

> Baptist, and had to wait hours to be assigned a room

> to sleep in; after they were finally assigned a room,

> two white nurses suddenly arrived after the cut-off

> time (time to be assigned a room), and Denise and her

> family were booted out; their room was given up to the

> new nurses. Denise was furious, and rather than stay

> at Baptist, decided to walk home (several blocks away)

> to ride out the storm at her mother's apartment. her

> mother stayed at the hospital.

>

> she described it as the scariest time in her life. 3

> of the rooms in the apartment (there are only 4) caved

> in. ceilings caved in, walls caved in. she huddled

> under a mattress in the hall. she thought she would

> die from either the storm or a heart attack. after the

> storm passed, she went back to Baptist to seek shelter

> (this was Monday). it was also scary at Baptist; the

> electricity was out, they were running on generators,

> there was no air conditioning. Tuesday the levees

> broke, and water began rising. they moved patients

> upstairs, saw boats pass by on what used to be

> streets. they were told that they would be evacuated,

> that buses were coming. then they were told they would

> have to walk to the nearest intersection, Napoleon and

> S. Claiborne, to await the buses. they waded out in

> hip-deep water, only to stand at the intersection, on

> the neutral ground (what y'all call the median) for 3

> 1/2 hours. the buses came and took them to the Ernest

> Morial Convention Center. (yes, the convention center

> you've all seen on TV.)

>

> Denise said she thought she was in hell. they were

> there for 2 days, with no water, no food. no shelter.

> Denise, her mother (63 years old), her niece (21 years

> old), and 2-year-old grandniece. when they arrived,

> there were already thousands of people there. they

> were told that buses were coming. police drove by,

> windows rolled up, thumbs up signs. national guard

> trucks rolled by, completely empty, soldiers with guns

> cocked and aimed at them. nobody stopped to drop off

> water. a helicopter dropped a load of water, but all

> the bottles exploded on impact due to the height of

> the helicopter.

>

> the first day (Wednesday) 4 people died next to her.

> the second day (Thursday) 6 people died next to her.

> Denise told me the people around her all thought they

> had been sent there to die. again, nobody stopped. the

> only buses that came were full; they dropped off more

> and more people, but nobody was being picked up and

> taken away. they found out that those being dropped

> off had been rescued from rooftops and attics; they

> got off the buses delirious from lack of water and

> food. completely dehydrated. the crowd tried to keep

> them all in one area; Denise said the new arrivals had

> mostly lost their minds. they had gone crazy.

>

> inside the convention center, the place was one huge

> bathroom. in order to ****, you had to stand in other

> people's ****. the floors were black and slick with

> ****. most people stayed outside because the smell was

> so bad. but outside wasn't much better: between the

> heat, the humidity, the lack of water, the old and

> very young dying from dehydration... and there was no

> place to lay down, not even room on the sidewalk. they

> slept outside Wednesday night, under an overpass.

>

> Denise said yes, there were young men with guns there.

> but they organized the crowd. they went to Canal

> Street and "looted," and brought back food and water

> for the old people and the babies, because nobody had

> eaten in days. when the police rolled down windows and

> yelled out "the buses are coming," the young men with

> guns organized the crowd in order: old people in

> front, women and children next, men in the back. just

> so that when the buses came, there would be priorities

> of who got out first.

>

> Denise said the fights she saw between the young men

> with guns were fist fights. she saw them put their

> guns down and fight rather than shoot up the crowd.

> but she said that there were a handful of people shot

> in the convention center; their bodies were left

> inside, along with other dead babies and old people.

>

> Denise said the people thought there were being sent

> there to die. lots of people being dropped off, nobody

> being picked up. cops passing by, speeding off.

> national guard rolling by with guns aimed at them. and

> yes, a few men shot at the police, because at a

> certain point all the people thought the cops were

> coming to hurt them, to kill them all. she saw a young

> man who had stolen a car speed past, cops in pursuit;

> he crashed the car, got out and ran, and the cops shot

> him in the back. in front of the whole crowd. she saw

> many groups of people decide that they were going to

> walk across the bridge to the west bank, and those

> same groups would return, saying that they were met at

> the top of the bridge by armed police ordering them to

> turn around, that they weren't allowed to leave.

>

> so they all believed they were sent there to die.

>

> Denise's niece found a pay phone, and kept trying to

> call her mother's boyfriend in Baton Rouge, and

> finally got through and told him where they were. the

> boyfriend, and Denise's brother, drove down from Baton

> Rouge and came and got them. they had to bribe a few

> cops, and talk a few into letting them into the city

> ("come on, man, my 2-year-old niece is at the

> Convention Center!"), then they took back roads to get

> to them.

>

> after arriving at my other cousin's apartment in Baton

> Rouge, they saw the images on TV, and couldn't believe

> how the media was portraying the people of New

> Orleans. she kept repeating to me on the phone last

> night: make sure you tell everybody that they left us

> there to die. nobody came. those young men with guns

> were protecting us. if it wasn't for them, we wouldn't

> have had the little water and food they had found.

>

> that's Denise Moore's story.

>

> Lisa C. Moore

****

Transcript:

I was in my house when everything first started. I was

in my house in the Bywater area in the Ninth Ward in

New Orleans. When the hurricane came, it blew all of

the left side of my house, the north side of my house

completely off. The water was coming in my house in

torrents. I had my neighbor, and an elderly man who is

my neighbor, and myself in the house with our dogs and

cats, and we were trying to stay out of the water but

the water was coming in too fast. So we ended up

having to leave the house. We left the house and we

went up on the roof of a school. I took a crowbar and

I burst the door open on the roof of the school to

help people, to get them up on the roof of the school.

Later on we found a flatboat, and we went around in

the flatboat, getting people off the roof of their

houses and bringing them to the school. We found all

the food that we could, and we cooked and we fed

people. But then, things started getting really bad.

By the second day, the people that were there -- the

people that we were feeding and everything -- we had

no more food, no water, no nothing. And other people

were coming into our neighborhood. We were watching

the helicopters go across the bridge and airlift other

people out, but they would hover over us and tell us

"hi", and that would be all. They wouldn't drop us any

food, any water, nothing.

Alligators were eating people. They had all kind of

stuff floating in the water. They had babies floating

in the water. We had to walk over hundreds of bodies

of dead people -- people that we tried to save from

the hospices, from the hospitals, and from the old

folks homes. I tried to get the police to help us, but

I realized we rescued a lot of police officers in the

flatboat from the Fifth District Police Station. The

guy who was driving the boat, he rescued them and

brought them to a lot of different places where they

could be saved. We understood why the police couldn't

help us, but we couldn't understand why the National

Guard and them couldn't help us, because we kept

seeing them. But they never would stop and help us.

Finally, it just got to be too much. I just took all

of the people that I could. I had two old women in

wheelchairs with no legs. I rolled them from down

there in that Ninth Ward to the French Quarter, and I

went back and got more people. There were groups of

us, there was about 24 of us, and we kept going back

and forth rescuing whoever we could get and bringing

them to the French Quarter since we heard that there

were phones in the French Quarter and that there

wasn't any water [flooding]. They were right, there

was phones, but we couldn't get through.

I found some police officers. I told them that a lot

of us women had been raped down there. [her voice

breaks] Men were coming in through the neighborhood,

not the men that were helping us save people, but

others. [begins crying] And they came and they started

raping women, and raping them, and then they started

killing. And I don't know who these people were, I'm

not going to tell you I knew who they were, because I

don't. But what I want people to understand is that if

we were not left down there like the animals they were

treating us like, all of those things wouldn't have

happened. People are trying to say that we stayed in

that city because we *wanted* to be rioting and we

wanted to do this. We didn't have resources to get

out; we had no way to leave. When they gave the

evacuation order, if we could have left, we would have

left.

There are still thousands and thousands of people

trapped in the homes down in the downtown area, in the

Ninth Ward. And not just in my neighborhood, but in

other neighborhoods in the Ninth Ward. There are

people still trapped down there -- old people, young

people, babies, pregnant women -- nobody's helping

them. And I want people to realize that we did not

stay in that city so we could steal and loot and

commit crimes. A lot of those young men lost their

minds because the helicopters would fly over us and

wouldn't stop. We'd do SOS with the flashlights, we'd

do everything. And it came to a point, it really did

come to a point, when these young men were so

frustrated that they did start shooting. They weren't

trying to hit the helicopters, they figured that maybe

they weren't seeing, maybe if they hear this gunfire,

they will stop then. But that didn't help us, nothing

like that helped us.

Finally, I got to Canal Street with all of my people

that I had saved from back there. There was a whole

group of us. *I* -- I don't want them arresting nobody

else -- *I* broke the window in a RTA bus. I never

learned how to drive a bus in my life. I got in that

bus, I loaded all of those people in wheelchairs and

everything else into that bus, [begins sobbing] and we

drove and we drove and we drove and millions of people

were trying to get me to help them, to get on the bus

with us [breaks down in sobs, Bishop Hughes comforts

and praises her inaudibly] I don't know how God gave

me the willpower to do... I just tried...gave me the

willpower to do... I just tried... [segment ends]

that's Charmaine Neville's story.

I just left New Orleans a couple hours ago. I traveled from the

apartment I was staying in by boat to a helicopter to a refugee

camp. If anyone wants to examine the attitude of federal and state

officials towards the victims of hurricane Katrina, I advise you to

visit

one of the refugee camps.

In the refugee camp I just left, on the I-10 freeway near Causeway,

thousands of people (at least 90% black and poor) stood and squatted in

mud and trash behind metal barricades, under an unforgiving sun, with

heavily armed soldiers standing guard over them. When a bus

would come through, it would stop at a random spot, state police

would open a gap in one of the barricades, and people would rush for

the

bus, with no information given about where the bus was going.

Once inside (we were told) evacuees would be told where the bus was

taking

them - Baton Rouge, Houston, Arkansas, Dallas, or other

locations. I was told that if you boarded a bus bound for Arkansas (for

example), even people with family and a place to stay in Baton Rouge

would

not be allowed to get out of the bus as it passed

through Baton Rouge. You had no choice but to go to the shelter in

Arkansas. If you had people willing to come to New Orleans to pick you

up,

they could not come within 17 miles of the camp.

I traveled throughout the camp and spoke to Red Cross workers,

Salvation Army workers, National Guard, and state police, and

although they were friendly, no one could give me any details on

when buses would arrive, how many, where they would go to, or any

other information. I spoke to the several teams of journalists

nearby, and asked if any of them had been able to get any

information from any federal or state officials on any of these

questions, and all of them, from Australian tv to local Fox

affiliates complained of an unorganized, non-communicative, mess.

One cameraman told me "as someone who's been here in this camp for two

days, the only information I can give you is this: get out by

nightfall. You don't want to be here at night."

There was also no visible attempt by any of those running the camp to

set

up any sort of transparent and consistent system, for

instance a line to get on buses, a way to register contact

information or find family members, special needs services for

children and infirm, phone services, treatment for possible disease

exposure, nor even a single trash can.

To understand this tragedy, its important to look at New Orleans

itself.

For those who have not lived in New Orleans, you have missed a

incredible, glorious, vital, city. A place with a culture and energy

unlike anywhere else in the world. A 70% African-American city where

resistance to white supremecy has supported a generous, subversive and

unique culture of vivid beauty. From jazz, blues and hiphop, to

secondlines, Mardi Gras Indians, Parades, Beads, Jazz Funerals, and red

beans and rice on Monday nights, New Orleans is a place of art and

music

and dance and sexuality and liberation unlike anywhere

else in the world.

It is a city of kindness and hospitality, where walking down the

block can take two hours because you stop and talk to someone on

every porch, and where a community pulls together when someone is in

need.

It is a city of extended families and social networks filling the gaps

left by city, state and federal goverments that have

abdicated their responsibilty for the public welfare. It is a city

where

someone you walk past on the street not only asks how you are, they

wait

for an answer.

It is also a city of exploitation and segregation and fear. The city of

New Orleans has a population of just over 500,000 and was

expecting 300 murders this year, most of them centered on just a

few, overwhelmingly black, neighborhoods. Police have been quoted as

saying that they don't need to search out the perpetrators, because

usually a few days after a shooting, the attacker is shot in

revenge.

There is an atmosphere of intense hostility and distrust between

much of Black New Orleans and the N.O. Police Department. In recent

months, officers have been accused of everything from drug running to

corruption to theft. In seperate incidents, two New Orleans

police officers were recently charged with rape (while in uniform), and

there have been several high profile police killings of unarmed youth,

including the murder of Jenard Thomas, which has inspired

ongoing weekly protests for several months.

The city has a 40% illiteracy rate, and over 50% of black ninth

graders will not graduate in four years. Louisiana spends on average

$4,724 per child's education and ranks 48th in the country for

lowest teacher salaries. The equivalent of more than two classrooms of

young people drop out of Louisiana schools every day and about

50,000 students are absentfrom school on any given day. Far too many

young

black men from New Orleans end up enslaved in Angola Prison, a former

slave plantation where inmates still do manual farm labor,

and over 90% of inmates eventually die in the prison. It is a city

where

industry has left, and most remaining jobs are are low-paying,

transient,

insecure jobs in the service economy.

Race has always been the undercurrent of Louisiana politics. This

disaster is one that was constructed out of racism, neglect and

incompetence. Hurricane Katrina was the inevitable spark igniting

the gasoline of cruelty and corruption. From the neighborhoods left

most

at risk, to the treatment of the refugees to the the media

portayal of the victims, this disaster is shaped by race.

Louisiana politics is famously corrupt, but with the tragedies of

this week our political leaders have defined a new level of

incompetence.

As hurricane Katrina approached, our Governor urged us to "Pray the

hurricane down" to a level two. Trapped in a building two days after

the

hurricane, we tuned our battery-operated radio into local radio and tv

stations, hoping for vital news, and were told that our

governor had called for a day of prayer. As rumors and panic began to

rule, they was no source of solid dependable information. Tuesday

night,

politicians and reporters said the water level would rise

another 12 feet - instead it stabilized.

Rumors spread like wildfire, and the politicians and media only made it

worse.

While the rich escaped New Orleans, those with nowhere to go and no way

to

get there were left behind. Adding salt to the wound, the

local and national media have spent the last week demonizing those left

behind.

As someone that loves New Orleans and the people in it, this is the

part

of this tragedy that hurts me the most, and it hurts me deeply.

No sane person should classify someone who takes food from

indefinitely closed stores in a desperate, starving city as

a "looter," but thats just what the media did over and over again.

Sherrifs and politicians talked of having troops protect stores

instead of perform rescue operations.

Images of New Orleans' hurricane-ravaged population were transformed

into

black, out-of-control, criminals. As if taking a stereo from a store

that

will clearly be insured against loss is a greater crime than the

governmental neglect and incompetence that did billions of dollars of

damage and destroyed a city. This media focus is a

tactic, just as the eighties focus on "welfare queens" and "super-

predators" obscured the simultaneous and much larger crimes of the

Savings

and Loan scams and mass layoffs, the hyper-exploited people of New

Orleans

are being used as a scapegoat to cover up much larger crimes.

City, state and national politicians are the real criminals here.

Since at least the mid-1800s, its been widely known the danger faced by

flooding to New Orleans. The flood of 1927, which, like this

week's events, was more about politics and racism than any kind of

natural

disaster, illustrated exactly the danger faced. Yet

government officials have consistently refused to spend the money to

protect this poor, overwhelmingly black, city.

While FEMA and others warned of the urgent impending danger to New

Orleans

and put forward proposals for funding to reinforce and

protect the city, the Bush administration, in every year since 2001,

has

cut or refused to fund New Orleans flood control, and ignored

scientists warnings of increased hurricanes as a result of global

warming. And, as the dangers rose with the floodlines, the lack of

coordinated response dramatized vividly the callous disregard of our

elected leaders.

The aftermath from the 1927 flood helped shape the elections of both a

US

President and a Governor, and ushered in the southern populist politics

of

Huey Long.

In the coming months, billions of dollars will likely flood into New

Orleans. This money can either be spent to usher in a "New Deal" for

the

city, with public investment, creation of stable union jobs, new

schools,

cultural programs and housing restoration, or the city can be "rebuilt

and

revitalized" to a shell of its former self, with

newer hotels, more casinos, and with chain stores and theme parks

replacing the former neighborhoods, cultural centers and corner jazz

clubs.

Long before Katrina, New Orleans was hit by a hurricane of poverty,

racism, disinvestment, de-industrialization and corruption. Simply the

damage from this pre-Katrina hurricane will take billions to

repair.

Now that the money is flowing in, and the world's eyes are focused on

Katrina, its vital that progressive-minded people take this

opportunity to fight for a rebuilding with justice. New Orleans is a

special place, and we need to fight for its rebirth.

[mfuqua23]

I think that article you showed us ted, basically sums up the way to feel after you read such a thing.

I am currently watching Weekends at the DL, and I agree with everything they said. I don't think there is anything to be confused about. Kanye West said what he said and it brought questions to light. The finding vs looting debate. The bypass of help. Just a lot of different things. I would think that if National Guard would bypass, at least go down, let the people know you handling one area at a time or something. But if your searching for people that stranded and suffering, stop as soon as you spot something.

The point was brought up that maybe people didn't have the resources to leave so they were going to "try" to fight it out at home. Right about that. Now for those that had the resources, if they didn't leave, then you can criticize all you want.

Edited September 10, 2005 by mfuqua23

[bigted]

Bush's approval rating went down to 39 percent from 40 percent last week so that means a lot of this country still agrees with Kanye! I still think that there's a prejudice towards blacks but I also think there's also a prejudice towards poor people that're any color by the government leaders that're black or white, it's a class issue, these people barely had anything before the storm hit to begin with. I think most of the new jobs that Bush is coming up with now are minimum wage jobs so a lot of poverty will still be around, I could see it for myself since I can't find a computer programming job in my area and all I see is places like Burger King and Kmart hiring, I'm still waiting on them to hire me too and I got a high school diploma but they rather hire 16-year olds or women and pay them less, you shouldn't have to move to another area to find the job you want or just get a job period since this is a land of opportunity, it depresses me too when I was working in a dollar store and I see people using credit card to buy a container of milk, this is how poor we've become that we don't have $2 in our pockets anymore? I heard they're giving hard time to the victims with the $2,000 debit cards they were given too. The government's gonna be more concerned about rebuilding New Orleans than they will be about helping victims get back on their feet, look at what happened to the 9/11 victims, a lot of them didn't get the assistance they deserved right up to this day, peep that article I posted on this forum too a couple days ago! :

President's Approval Rating Dips Below 40 By WILL LESTER, Associated Press Writer

25 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - President Bush's job approval has dipped below 40 percent for the first time in the AP-Ipsos poll, reflecting widespread doubts about his handling of gasoline prices and the response to Hurricane Katrina.

ADVERTISEMENT

Nearly four years after Bush's job approval soared into the 80s after the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, Bush was at 39 percent job approval in an AP-Ipsos poll taken this week. That's the lowest since the the poll was started in December 2003.

The public's view of the nation's direction has grown increasingly negative as well, with nearly two-thirds now saying the country is heading down the wrong track.

"As a nation, we are pretty well stretched," said Barry Allen, a political independent from Reed City, Mich. "I approve of some of the things the president has done, and disapprove of others. Overall, I disapprove."

Allen said he liked some of Bush's economic steps during his first term but has been dissatisfied with the president's economic moves in his second term, his Iraq policy and his handling of gasoline prices.

Allen worries Hurricane Katrina has taken the wind out of an economy that was moving in the right direction.

With gasoline racing past $3 a gallon, Bush's standing on dealing with those prices may be one of his biggest problems — seven in 10 said they disapprove.

And just over half in the poll, 52 percent, said they disapprove of the president's handling of the hurricane.

For Bill Kane of Kingsland, Ga., the government's slow response to the hurricane "was terrifying to see in our own country. It made you mad, because it made you think where's our money going?"

More evidence of problems with the storm response surfaced Friday when the Federal Emergency Management Agency announced it would discontinue a 2-day-old program to issue debit cards worth to displaced families.

The administration also dumped FEMA Director Michael Brown, who had come to symbolize the stumbling early days of the hurricane response, as commander of Katrina relief efforts.

Brown once served as the judges and stewards commissioner for the International Arabian Horse Association.

"Bush puts people in jobs who don't know what they're doing," said Shirley Carignan, a retiree and a political independent from Weymouth, Mass. "I think he's picking friends for these jobs. My girlfriend raises Arabians. You know horses, so what? Horses and people are different things."

The number of people who think the country is on the wrong track grew from 59 percent last month to 65 percent this month. Tumbling consumer confidence after Hurricane Katrina may be contributing to that sense of pessimism.

The RBC CASH Index, based on polling by Ipsos, showed that consumer confidence sank in September to the lowest level since early March 2003 before the start of the Iraq war.

Economic woes and a continuing war in Iraq have been complicated by the continuing hurricane recovery crisis.

"A lot of Americans don't pay attention to their leaders on a day-to-day basis," said Robert Blendon, a public opinion analyst at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government. "They measure presidents, governors and mayors on how they handle big events like a hurricane. This event is not over because the bodies are going to be discovered day by day."

___

On the Net:

Ipsos: http://www.ap-ipsosresults.com

Edited September 10, 2005 by bigted

[MaxFly]

Comprhensive assesment of the events leading up to and after Hurricane Katrina.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9286534/

[bea321]

Songs about Bush and Katrina:

http://o-dub.com/sounds/soulsides/kotix.mp3

http://o-dub.com/sounds/soulsides/mosdef.mp3

SOURCE:http://soul-sides.com/

[Cozmo D]

I said I was done with you when I thought you were someone of intelligence who had his head stuck in the sand.  Then I looked in your profile and realized that you were just someone of intelligence filled with the naiveté and ignorance of youth. 

You are highly intelligent and pretty well educated as well, of that there is no doubt.  But you also suffer from that common youthful disease that we all at one time or another fall victim to, you think that you know it all. 

It was evident in our conversation when you answered my replies to your posts with the same exact points that I had replied to.  This says that you refuse to consider my points, instead of asking me to further define them.  I mistook that then for intentionally blind ignorance, often a permanent condition.  Upon spying your age though I realized that it was in actuality youthful ignorance, which is usually quite temporary.  So I figured that I would take this approach until you were ready to have a TWO-WAY conversation on the subject.  In the meantime, I'll have some fun! :lolsign:

You see, I already know all about highly intelligent 21 year-olds, since I was one myself 25 years ago, and having raised one myself (now 22) as well.  So, when you're ready, we can learn from each other. ;-)

Or, if you'd rather, we can continue this pissing contest.  Just remember, I've had way more time to hone my pissing skills, young Jedi. :gettinjiggywitit:

Haha, that post almost looks like an olive branch...

I must agree that many of the youth today do believe that they know it all, oftentimes being insufferable as they dogmatically persist in their beliefs, even in the face of evidence to the contrary. That's not me (there's always more to learn), but if you have gleaned that from my post, it seems that I'll have to further clarify my points... I'll do that a little lower down.

In keeping with the topic of "know it alls" for a second, I must point out that while young people in general do carry around this attitude, it's not an isolated epidemic. Unfortunately, young people who think they know everything often grow up to be older people who... think they know everything. Our elders often simply think they know everything because they are older. In truth, knowledge is passed down from parent to child, older to younger, generation to generation. This is how prosperous societies have always worked. However, the older among us are often so focused on imparting knowledge that they forget that there is always something new to learn, even from the very youth they are imparting knowledge to.

Now that's not to group you with that lot Cozmo. I don't know you, so it would be overly presumptuous of me to characterize you as such. Indeed, you don't seem to be, and I look forward to our "learning from each other." However, I did feel the need to point out that the "know it all" epidemic is not isolated, if only to stand up for the youth a little.

Now about that post... You said that you addressed everything I replied to in the very same post. I'm not sure you understood what I posted, so I'll pull out some examples...

You said that Kanye was simply voicing his concern of black people being grouped together when troops were told to shoot to kill. I pointed out that it was more of an accusation, and you have to question whether he understood what the full situation was in NO, or whether he chose to ignore it and make his accusation anyway. From the statement he made, he didn't convey concern that innocents and criminals may be grouped together; rather, it seemed that he had already made up his mind as to why troops were going in with shoot to kill orders, or at the very least, made it sound that way. The whole issue of that statement seems to be one of perception, or more accurately, how he chose to perceive the situation. In the face of the shootings, the arson, the raping, and the looting, he chose to make it sound like troops would be entering the city to shoot black people indiscriminately rather than to simply restore order, scaring away those who would use the tragedy for their own personal gain. I listened to the govenor of Louisiana give the "shoot to kill" order. For all her tough talk of M16s, troops weren't going to go in to shoot people taking bread and water, and in hindsight, they haven't done that. They haven't grouped the innocent with the criminals.

If he wanted to convey his concern, he should have worded his statement as such or not said anything on the issue at all. Instead, at the very least, he made it sound as if he were accusing the govenor of giving the orders because of discrimination.

You made another statement to the effect... The entire situation in New Orleans was overtly (openly or obviously) racist.

I answered you with a question. If the entire situation is openly racist, where does the mayor of New Orleans stand in the whole equation. He has a fair share of blame in all of this, but he's black.

You said "...overtly, yet perceptively." When you used "overtly" did you mean "openly or obviously?" Is it that you just used the wrong word to express what you wanted to say? Did you want to say that it was not obvious, yet perceptible? I really am seeking to understand what you meant by that.

Something that is overt is generally perceptible; I didn't understand the use of yet in that sentence.

←

Sorry this took so long. Just back and finished recuperating from Chief's wedding. Talk about your anthropological studies! :rofl:

Agreed, there are plenty of older "know it alls" about. We call them "fools". I learn from those around me every day. I have no doubt that there is plenty that I can learn from you and everyone else here. I have learned much from my 22 year old son, and plenty as well from my 15 year old, who has been Special Ed all of his life. I learned many years ago that one of the most humbling experiences a father can have... especially one who was a whiz at algebra in HS... is to sit down to help his child with their 6th grade math and realize that they can't make heads or tails out of it!

A truth for you... one that few of us learn and most take half a lifetime to do it... the only thing that we can really know and understand is that we don't know or understand anything. :davidblaine:

OK, first. I do not and will not try to comprehend exactly what was going through Kanye's mind when he made his statements. I doubt if even Kanye does. It was plain to see that his mind was jumbled and racing and most of what he said was barely coherent. I do not think that it was his responsibility to say what he did anymore than it was for him to address the violence and looting. I will also remind you that I did not think that he chose the proper forum in which to make these statements. However, I do APPLAUD his making them, as they were obviously straight from his heart. We need more like him in Hip-Hop. Many more.

Ahhh.... I wrote OVERT instead of COVERT...WHOOPS!!! My bad!!! :sorry:

Hopefully, if you overlook my gaff and exchange the words you can now see my point. As I said, racism is so deeply imbedded in our system and psyche in this nation that in many cases it now implements itself. It needs no racists or catalysts to set it off, it awaits in almost every situation to manifest itself, and Katrina has made that plainly and painfully evident.

In fact, this very discussion is evident of this. The tragedy in NO was about the suffering of THOUSANDS, not the criminal activities of a handful. Yet, the racist perceptions of much of our nation, including many many blacks, somehow managed to morph them together as if they were one and the same. We seemed to believe that these crimes were committed by those who were suffering, instead of by criminals who were adding to their suffering. In fact, it seemed that the very blackness of many of the victims was at fault. Black people don't listen to warnings so they deserve to be stuck there. Black people shoot at rescue workers so they deserve to be left there. Black people loot whenever they get a chance so they deserve no provisions.

You never hear about this sort of thing when white Americans run amuck. When some sports team wins a championship and white youth run the streets burning and looting you never hear any mention of race. You never see any editorials decrying the failure of whites to assimilate into American society. You never see white apologists on TV talking about how white people have got to get their act together. This sort of thing has been reserved exclusively for black Americans, and that my friend, is racist.

[Chief]

k....im back...what did i miss..:)

[MaxFly]

OK, first.  I do not and will not try to comprehend exactly what was going through Kanye's mind when he made his statements.  I doubt if even Kanye does.  It was plain to see that his mind was jumbled and racing and most of what he said was barely coherent.  I do not think that it was his responsibility to say what he did anymore than it was for him to address the violence and looting.  I will also remind you that I did not think that he chose the proper forum in which to make these statements.  However, I do APPLAUD his making them, as they were obviously straight from his heart.  We need more like him in Hip-Hop.  Many more.

Lol, I wouldn't sentence anyone to the unenviable task of trying to comprehend what was going through Kanye's mind at the time. However, I still find it hard for me to applaud what he said, even if it did come from his heart. The inappropriateness of the time and place and the accusatory tone he took in voicing his "concerns" make the whole thing a turn off. I do agree with you that Hip Hop could use more artists who speak their minds. My only wish would be that they use the forums they have responsibly and effectively. I know, we're all thinking... anything is better than what we have now, but I think we leave the door open for other rappers to make even more divisive and uninformed statements.

I guess we'll have to agree to not agree on everything (I can't say "disagree" because we do agree on many points).

Ahhh.... I wrote OVERT instead of COVERT...WHOOPS!!!  My bad!!! :sorry:

Hopefully, if you overlook my gaff and exchange the words you can now see my point.  As I said, racism is so deeply imbedded in our system and psyche in this nation that in many cases it now implements itself.  It needs no racists or catalysts to set it off, it awaits in almost every situation to manifest itself, and Katrina has made that plainly and painfully evident. 

In fact, this very discussion is evident of this.  The tragedy in NO was about the suffering of THOUSANDS, not the criminal activities of a handful.  Yet, the racist perceptions of much of our nation, including many many blacks, somehow managed to morph them together as if they were one and the same.  We seemed to believe that these crimes were committed by those who were suffering, instead of by criminals who were adding to their suffering.  In fact, it seemed that the very blackness of many of the victims was at fault.  Black people don't listen to warnings so they deserve to be stuck there.  Black people shoot at rescue workers so they deserve to be left there.  Black people loot whenever they get a chance so they deserve no provisions.

Fair enough. I'll give you some leeway, and I can agree that racism itself is embedded in the fabric of our society. However, I'm not sure we've been grouping the criminals with those who are suffering, nor do I agree with anyone who would make any statement similar to the last three you listed. There are undoubtably people who are racist or prejudice in our midst who would think this way, but I think the discussion was centered around whether the government's slow reaction (both local and federal), was a result of racism. I don't think the government was thinking along the lines of those last three statements. That's what many here have boldly alleged. That's what Kanye's statement focused on. That's where I think he falls short.

[Cozmo D]

OK, first.  I do not and will not try to comprehend exactly what was going through Kanye's mind when he made his statements.  I doubt if even Kanye does.  It was plain to see that his mind was jumbled and racing and most of what he said was barely coherent.  I do not think that it was his responsibility to say what he did anymore than it was for him to address the violence and looting.  I will also remind you that I did not think that he chose the proper forum in which to make these statements.  However, I do APPLAUD his making them, as they were obviously straight from his heart.  We need more like him in Hip-Hop.  Many more.

Lol, I wouldn't sentence anyone to the unenviable task of trying to comprehend what was going through Kanye's mind at the time. However, I still find it hard for me to applaud what he said, even if it did come from his heart. The inappropriateness of the time and place and the accusatory tone he took in voicing his "concerns" make the whole thing a turn off. I do agree with you that Hip Hop could use more artists who speak their minds. My only wish would be that they use the forums they have responsibly and effectively. I know, we're all thinking... anything is better than what we have now, but I think we leave the door open for other rappers to make even more divisive and uninformed statements.

I guess we'll have to agree to not agree on everything (I can't say "disagree" because we do agree on many points).

Heheheh... The quote my wife likes to use, "When a donkey flies, you don't ask 'how far". Agreed!

Ahhh.... I wrote OVERT instead of COVERT...WHOOPS!!!  My bad!!! :sorry:

Hopefully, if you overlook my gaff and exchange the words you can now see my point.  As I said, racism is so deeply imbedded in our system and psyche in this nation that in many cases it now implements itself.  It needs no racists or catalysts to set it off, it awaits in almost every situation to manifest itself, and Katrina has made that plainly and painfully evident. 

In fact, this very discussion is evident of this.  The tragedy in NO was about the suffering of THOUSANDS, not the criminal activities of a handful.  Yet, the racist perceptions of much of our nation, including many many blacks, somehow managed to morph them together as if they were one and the same.  We seemed to believe that these crimes were committed by those who were suffering, instead of by criminals who were adding to their suffering.  In fact, it seemed that the very blackness of many of the victims was at fault.  Black people don't listen to warnings so they deserve to be stuck there.  Black people shoot at rescue workers so they deserve to be left there.  Black people loot whenever they get a chance so they deserve no provisions.

Fair enough. I'll give you some leeway, and I can agree that racism itself is embedded in the fabric of our society. However, I'm not sure we've been grouping the criminals with those who are suffering, nor do I agree with anyone who would make any statement similar to the last three you listed. There are undoubtably people who are racist or prejudice in our midst who would think this way, but I think the discussion was centered around whether the government's slow reaction (both local and federal), was a result of racism. I don't think the government was thinking along the lines of those last three statements. That's what many here have boldly alleged. That's what Kanye's statement focused on. That's where I think he falls short.

←

It must be remembered that my original posts here were mostly C&Ps from other forums. Many of the people there were in fact alleging these very things, and ALL of them are white. As for the government's slow reaction being a result of racism, while that cannot be proven either true or false, it can be perceived as such and has been implied as such. I don't believe that the government was "thinking" along the lines of those statements either, but very often when poor black people are involved the Government doesn't "think" much at all. There seems to be plenty of evidence that this was the case in this tragedy, and that in and of itself is indeed racist.

Edited September 14, 2005 by Cozmo D