Kanye West causes controversy on NBC

[MaxFly]

I was speaking about perceptions and you know it.

Did I say that you weren't speaking about perceptions? Don't shy away from the point. The fact remains that you were the one to introduce race to the discussion of crime and violence and you are well aware of this. Your initial argument wasn't about mass hysteria or citizens spreading rumors. It was about how people are more likely to believe these stories because those involved are black. You went on in another post to say that there was "not ONE" first person statement about crime, further trying to prove you point that people were relying on their racist perceptions. It turns out that there are SEVERAL first hand statements... Obviously wrong, and quickly covering up, you went on to try to discredit them, going so far as citing mass hysteria. I don't have to tell you how ridiculous and illogical that is. You should already know. Before you post anything in response to this, think about it, go back to your previous posts if you have to. I don't want to have to come back to this.

And I agreed with you. What you refuse to admit is that the white community would have perceived it in a racial context as well, albeit likely one that was different than that of the black community..

No, you didn't simply agree with me. You added something that I didn't say and I had to correct you. The point of the example is that even though there may be no true racial issue in a given scenario, it can be quickly manufactured, whether black or white. This is what we have in New Orleans with the slow relief response. A slow response, which lacked any racial motivation, was given one. One would think that the mistakes and the incompetence leading to the slow response would be reason enough for the slow response, but ontop of that, those downing in their own racist perceptions chose to attatch racism to this... not because there was really any racism, but simply because blacks were involved. Instead of speaking about the racism that ultimately led these victims to poverty and helplessness, a few focused on the non-existant racism in the slow relief effort itself.

Because your perceptions are racist does not make YOU a racist, this has been my point from the beginning.

you are obviously saying that I have a racial or racist viewpoint, which is belittling, insulting, and completely non-evident in anything and everything that I have written so far

And yet you persist with the hypocrisy... you say are offended and insulted when you falsely assume that I accuse you of having a racist viewpoint, but then you turn around and say the very same thing to me. And then you post something totally different from the point of my post. I'll say it again. Don't be a hypocrite.

I believed these stories as well at first, but became increasingly skeptical as I observed none of it, and no evidence of it was forthcoming. I would be just as skeptical regardless of the races involved.

You've conveniently forgotten. I posted an article as well as a link concerning the arrest of someone suspected of shooting at a rescue helicopter. I also posted the article from the New Orleans paper of the bodies found in the Convention Center. I also posted an article about a reporter's first hand account. It wasn't very sunny. Posted police confirmation of police officers having been shot at, and one was actually shot in the head. Navy contractors have been shot at. I posted that as well. I posted a doctor's first hand accound of how things were. It's not that there isn't evidence or information. You're just highly dismisive of it.

I DOUBT them...severely.

So you doubt the citizens and rescue workers "severely"... So you think that these victims may be lying in large numbers, all over New Orleans... I see.

So, we got lucky, and only a few Americans died. This time. Sometimes we have lucked out, sometimes we haven't. Doesn't change how I feel about it.

And the govenment could have attempted the alternative and had a lot more Americans die in this specific tradegy, including a few national guard troops.

"They got lucky" is one of the most famously used phrases when someone has been shown to be wrong.

I've already pointed it out to you, but your mind is closed to it.

No, you actually haven't. You've claimed it, but you've made no logical argument to support it. In the arguments you have made, you've made it clear that you are decidedly one sided on the matter, going as far as to ignore incorrect statements that you have made. You need to reexamine who's mind is truly closed.

Man, i'm in the mood for pizza.

What kind of pizza?

Edited September 22, 2005 by MaxFly

[Cozmo D]

I was speaking about perceptions and you know it.

Did I say that you weren't speaking about perceptions? Don't shy away from the point. The fact remains that you were the one to introduce race to the discussion of crime and violence and you are well aware of this. Your initial argument wasn't about mass hysteria or citizens spreading rumors. It was about how people are more likely to believe these stories because those involved are black. You went on in another post to say that there was "not ONE" first person statement about crime, further trying to prove you point that people were relying on their racist perceptions. It turns out that there are SEVERAL first hand statements... Obviously wrong, and quickly covering up, you went on to try to discredit them, going so far as citing mass hysteria. I don't have to tell you how ridiculous and illogical that is. You should already know. Before you post anything in response to this, think about it, go back to your previous posts if you have to. I don't want to have to come back to this.

And I still say people are relying on their racist perceptions. I haven't tried to cover-up anything. You seem to think that brow-beating and threatening makes you correct. It doesn't.

And I agreed with you. What you refuse to admit is that the white community would have perceived it in a racial context as well, albeit likely one that was different than that of the black community..

No, you didn't simply agree with me. You added something that I didn't say and I had to correct you. The point of the example is that even though there may be no true racial issue in a given scenario, it can be quickly manufactured, whether black or white. This is what we have in New Orleans with the slow relief response. A slow response, which lacked any racial motivation, was given one. One would think that the mistakes and the incompetence leading to the slow response would be reason enough for the slow response, but ontop of that, those downing in their own racist perceptions chose to attatch racism to this... not because there was really any racism, but simply because blacks were involved. Instead of speaking about the racism that ultimately led these victims to poverty and helplessness, a few focused on the non-existant racism in the slow relief effort itself.

I added something that you had left out in order to skew the question of racist perceptions to appear as if only black people suffer from them.

Because your perceptions are racist does not make YOU a racist, this has been my point from the beginning.

you are obviously saying that I have a racial or racist viewpoint, which is belittling, insulting, and completely non-evident in anything and everything that I have written so far

And yet you persist with the hypocrisy... you say are offended and insulted when you falsely assume that I accuse you of having a racist viewpoint, but then you turn around and say the very same thing to me. And then you post something totally different from the point of my post. I'll say it again. Don't be a hypocrite.

You did, and nowhere in anything that I have written is such a viewpoint evident. On the other hand, what you have written is crawling with it. No hypocrisy there.

I believed these stories as well at first, but became increasingly skeptical as I observed none of it, and no evidence of it was forthcoming. I would be just as skeptical regardless of the races involved.

You've conveniently forgotten. I posted an article as well as a link concerning the arrest of someone suspected of shooting at a rescue helicopter. I also posted the article from the New Orleans paper of the bodies found in the Convention Center. I also posted an article about a reporter's first hand account. It wasn't very sunny. Posted police confirmation of police officers having been shot at, and one was actually shot in the head. Navy contractors have been shot at. I posted that as well. I posted a doctor's first hand accound of how things were. It's not that there isn't evidence or information. You're just highly dismisive of it.

I haven't forgotten anything. You posted a link concerning the arrest of someone who was shooting at helicopters days afterwards and outside of New Orleans. WTF does that have to do with the discussion? You posted an EXCERPT from an article about the bodies, with only ONE body witnessed that supposedly had succumbed from violence, and that spoke of another. You posted an article about a reporter who did NOT witness ANY violence. The Navy contractors story was all over the news, it also happened afterwards. You posted the doctor's account, which you find highly plausible and I find somewhat suspect. So, out of all that rampaging carnage you present "evidence" of ONE body, ONE mention of a body, ONE shooter in a white shirt, and ONE report of shots fired. Of this "evidence", NONE of it has been physically backed up. Yet, I shouldn't be skeptical? Even giving every one of these full credence, it falls far short of being indicative of the raping, murdering and pillaging rampaging hordes that we heard so much about. In fact, judging from this "evidence", the crime rate in New Orleans actually DROPPED.

I DOUBT them...severely.

So you doubt the citizens and rescue workers "severely"... So you think that these victims may be lying in large numbers, all over New Orleans... I see.

No more than all of those people were lying about those Martians, all over New Jersey. BTW, you used "victims". Do you mean "crime victims"? You mean you have found some? Link please.

So, we got lucky, and only a few Americans died. This time. Sometimes we have lucked out, sometimes we haven't. Doesn't change how I feel about it.

And the govenment could have attempted the alternative and had a lot more Americans die in this specific tradegy, including a few national guard troops.

"They got lucky" is one of the most famously used phrases when someone has been shown to be wrong.

Really? Would you like to examine history and see how these things usually turn out?

Your problem is you're trying to prove that you're right. I'm trying to get to what's right. You're in this little battle of wits all by yourself. I could care less about scoring points, facts are ALL that I care about.

I've already pointed it out to you, but your mind is closed to it.

No, you actually haven't. You've claimed it, but you've made no logical argument to support it. In the arguments you have made, you've made it clear that you are decidedly one sided on the matter, going as far as to ignore incorrect statements that you have made. You need to reexamine who's mind is truly closed.

I've presented plenty of logic, and examined every point and C&P and link that you have presented in depth as well. I'm not the one who presented the early statement of the Police superintendent as evidence but then dismissed the later statement by the same man because he "has lost much of his police force". You seem to enjoy doing this tedious tit-for-tat bull**** instead of taking in the big picture. Well, I'm a big picture kind of guy, and frankly you just think a little too small for me.

But, I'll tell you what. Time is going to prove whether the violence there was over-exaggerated and over-sensationalized or not. If I'm wrong, I'll come right here and admit it, right here out in the open for all to see. Will you do the same? We'll see...

Oh, one more thing now that we're done...kindly go fukk yourself. Is THAT treading lightly enough for ya, tough guy? Wanna come see me? I'll post my address for ya.

[MaxFly]

And I still say people are relying on their racist perceptions. I haven't tried to cover-up anything. You seem to think that brow-beating and threatening makes you correct. It doesn't.

You've provided excuse after excuse and dismissals, even of first person statements and stories that you said didn't exist in the first place. You said, "not ONE is first person." You were wrong, but instead of simply admitting that and moving on, you attempted to deflect...

As for my usage of first person, most of the people on the ground that you quoted were relaying things that they were told. Regardless, it's not my statements that are in question here, but what TRULY happened in New Orleans. You write better than I do, hell, you write better than my lawyers, but this is not a debate. If what you're after is to be voted the smartest person here, you can have my proxy.

The truth is that I have posted a number of statements in this thread that were first person. First person statements from reporters who described what they witnessed, first person statements from witnesses. I even posted a confirmation of an arrest of someone who is suspected of shooting at a rescue helicopter, and a confirmation of the story involving the navy contractors. There are indeed first person statements. You say that it is not your statements that are in question, but when you say things that are false and then you repeatedly say that you deal in "facts," it is hard to take what you say seriously. What's worse, you tried to distance yourself from what you said without first acknowledging it, trying to move the focus of the topic onto me as evidenced in your response.

I added something that you had left out in order to skew the question of racist perceptions to appear as if only black people suffer from them.

I didn't attemt to skew anything. The point of the example was to show that even when there is no racism at all, where it played no role, the perception of some will be that racism was involed anyway. Are white people guilty of this as well. Of course. The examples I used were specifically relevant to the relief response after Katrina however. In an earlier post, you pointed out that in response to the slow relief efforts after Katrina...

Of course, white people will then say "but it could have happened to anybody"... but black people will answer, "but naturally it happened to us!

At the same time, in the tear gas shooting that we have already established as having nothing to do with racism, if the person who was shot were black, the exact same thing would have been said. White people would say that anyone could have been shot... black people would respond that it naturally happened to a black person. Again, the point is that even when there isn't racism, some will perceive there to be, whether black or white, and this seems to be the case with the slow relief response in New Orleans.

You did, and nowhere in anything that I have written is such a viewpoint evident. On the other hand, what you have written is crawling with it. No hypocrisy there.

First, please post the quote where I said or intimated that you had "racist perceptions." I'd be more than happy to rebuff your claim. I have a post in mind, and I have already addressed what I said and what I meant, but I'd be more than happy to correct you again. I'll let you do the homework. I'm not one to mince words. If I truly believed that you had racist perceptions, I would have said it by now, and it would have been explicit, regardless of whether you would feel insulted or hurt. Please proceed to post that quote of mine and explain yourself.

Second, please post examples of things that I have said that are "crawling" with revelation of my "racist perceptions." You made a statement, back it up. I'd be more than happy to set you straight on this as well.

I believed these stories as well at first, but became increasingly skeptical as I observed none of it, and no evidence of it was forthcoming. I would be just as skeptical regardless of the races involved.

I haven't forgotten anything. You posted a link concerning the arrest of someone who was shooting at helicopters days afterwards and outside of New Orleans. WTF does that have to do with the discussion? You posted an EXCERPT from an article about the bodies, with only ONE body witnessed that supposedly had succumbed from violence, and that spoke of another. You posted an article about a reporter who did NOT witness ANY violence. The Navy contractors story was all over the news, it also happened afterwards. You posted the doctor's account, which you find highly plausible and I find somewhat suspect. So, out of all that rampaging carnage you present "evidence" of ONE body, ONE mention of a body, ONE shooter in a white shirt, and ONE report of shots fired. Of this "evidence", NONE of it has been physically backed up. Yet, I shouldn't be skeptical? Even giving every one of these full credence, it falls far short of being indicative of the raping, murdering and pillaging rampaging hordes that we heard so much about. In fact, judging from this "evidence", the crime rate in New Orleans actually DROPPED.

What does this have to do with the discussion? Algiers is a suburb of New Orleans affected by the hurricane. A young man was arrested for shooting at a rescue helicopter there. According to you, there's supposed to be no evidence of such things taking place. Well now someone has been arrested for it. You said that that these things we unsubstantiated. You said that there were no first person accounts. You said that there was no evidence. I have provided specific instances of a few reports and first hand accounts of people saying that many of these things actually did happen. I won't waste time doing all of your homework for you. If you are truly openminded, you will seek further information. Don't limit yourself to only what I have provided.

Also I'm not sure if you expect news agencies to publish pictures of someone laying in waste, or if you expect a cameraman to chance upon a rape taking place and say, "Oh, look, lets go film it." You seem to ignore the fact that New Orleans has undergone a massive hurricane and flooding and that many of the protocols set in place to investigate crimes and to report crimes are almost completely non-existent and non-functioning. Take a look at the link below.

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2448

BTW, you used "victims". Do you mean "crime victims"? You mean you have found some? Link please.

No, I didn't mean crime victims. I meant the victims of the hurricane. However, I'm glad you brought this up. Could you please link to anything where witnesses have said that crime was mind, minor, or non-existent. Have any witnesses said that most of these reports are false? I would like a link for those please. I've looked, and I was unable to find any.

Also, in case you missed this in the link I provided above, I'm providing a more explicit link...

You asked for a crime victim. This person was a victim of the hurricane, the flood, the government's incompetence, and lastly, rape.

Charmaine Neville, has reported that she was raped. Below is one of the first hand accounts that isn't supposed to exist according to you.

http://2theadvocate.com/stories/090405/new_soul001.shtml

"Referring to getting raped, Neville said, "What he took from me was nothing, because he can't take my spirit, he can't take my soul. My soul is New Orleans."

Really? Would you like to examine history and see how these things usually turn out?

Your problem is you're trying to prove that you're right. I'm trying to get to what's right. You're in this little battle of wits all by yourself. I could care less about scoring points, facts are ALL that I care about.

Yes, please provide information on the last severe natural disaster in which a reasonable level of crime broke out in the aftermath and National Guard troops were sent in with orders to reestablish order and with shoot to kill orders, and then tell me how it turned out. Thanks. Also, I've already addressed your affinity to "facts" in this post. Feel free to scroll up to reference my statements if you feel the need.

I've presented plenty of logic, and examined every point and C&P and link that you have presented in depth as well. I'm not the one who presented the early statement of the Police superintendent as evidence but then dismissed the later statement by the same man because he "has lost much of his police force".

Perhaps we'll revisit your logic. In the meantime I didn't dismiss Compass' latter statment. I did point out that much of his police force, 200 or so officers as reported, have abandoned the force. It would be hard to find evidence of rapes and shootings when there is no official way to report crimes, when people are moving around from shelter to shelter, and when police were busy fighting what must have been imaginary criminals. I expect that all of this would be even harder when much of the police force is missing. I also suspect that police officers didn't bring along rape kits to substantiate these claimed rapes and I suspect that they haven't gone around asking "Who's been raped." Also, taking Compass' statement, Charmaine Neville's is an unsubstantiated rape.

You seem to enjoy doing this tedious tit-for-tat bull**** instead of taking in the big picture. Well, I'm a big picture kind of guy, and frankly you just think a little too small for me.

But, I'll tell you what. Time is going to prove whether the violence there was over-exaggerated and over-sensationalized or not. If I'm wrong, I'll come right here and admit it, right here out in the open for all to see. Will you do the same? We'll see....

Lol, thanks for the kind words.

Incidentally, this whole thing is not about who is right and who is wrong. It is a shame that you think it is. People have actually suffered and are suffering the things we have discussed. It goes far beyond being right or wrong, but for someone who looks at the big picture, you haven't seemed to grasp that yet. I hope you do. We will indeed see what took place, whether crime was sparse and mild or whether it serious enough for the national guard to be sent in with shoot to kill orders. I'll be here.

Oh, one more thing now that we're done...kindly go fukk yourself. Is THAT treading lightly enough for ya, tough guy? Wanna come see me? I'll post my address for ya.

Lol, it must have taken you a good 10 minutes to come up with that one huh...

Lol, do you get frustrated easily?

edit: Tim, is there anything we can do about quoting?

Edited September 23, 2005 by MaxFly

[Cozmo D]

Tuesday, September 27, 2005

OUR OPINIONS: Hurricane-force rumors

During Hurricane Betsey, then-Mayor Vic Schiro famously said, "Don't believe any false rumors unless you hear them from me.'' Unfortunately, during the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, some of the most lurid rumors of violence in the Superdome and the New Orleans Convention Center came from those in charge: Mayor Ray Nagin and Police Superintendent Eddie Compass. And now it appears they were mostly false.

Nearly a month after the storm, officials have come up with no hard evidence to back up stories of murder, rape and other violence that supposedly happened among those who took shelter in those places. No matter how convincing the eye witness accounts, the bodies that back up their stories aren't there.

The toll, after careful inspection, is as follows: four dead in the Convention Center, one by violence: six dead in the Superdome, none by violence. While there were reports of 30 to 40 dead in the Convention Center and 10 to numerous in the Dome, the actual tally has to be given more credibility than unconfirmed reports by traumatized people. During the chaotic week that followed Hurricane Katrina, four confirmed murders took place in New Orleans, a number that's not at all surprising or even unusual for a city that expected to see as many as 200 homicides this year.

Debunking widespread reports of rape, including rapes of children, is more difficult since people have scattered across the country, making it difficult to collect evidence or information. But police, military and rescue personnel who were on the scene say that most of what's been widely reported in the Dome and Convention Center simply didn't happen.

"Don't get me wrong, bad things happened, but I didn't see any killing and raping and cutting of throats or anything,'' said Sgt. 1st Class Jason Lachney, who played a key role in security and humanitarian efforts in the Superdome. According to Sgt. Lachney, 99 percent of the people sheltering in the Superdome --- and there were 30,000 of them --- were very well-behaved.

Bad things certainly happened. That many people jammed together with inadequate food, water, medicine and toilet facilities and a growing sense of abandonment and desperation suffered enormously. But they shouldn't also be maligned as lawless or even, to use Mayor Nagin's unfortunate word, animalistic.

Contrast Sgt. Lachney's comments with those of Superintendent Compass. During an interview with Oprah Winfrey, he said that babies were being raped. Mayor Nagin said that hundreds of armed gang members were killing and raping people inside the Dome.

Thank God it didn't happen. Everyone in south Louisiana --- in the entire country --- should feel a tremendous sense of relief that New Orleans didn't descend into some kind of post-apocolyptic orgy of violence following Katrina. But that doesn't mean damage wasn't done. Rumors, widely reported as fact, can live on even after they are debunked, and the tales from the Dome and the Convention Center are more compelling than most urban myths.

These frightening stories can continue to hurt us by discouraging people from returning to this region and by marring New Orleans' image with tourists. Rumors of violence may have hampered rescue efforts in some cases. We can't afford to allow them to hamper our recovery. It's bad enough that the Superdome will be associated with squalor and misery; far worse to have it associated with murder and mayhem.

It's understandable that in the tense and fractured days after Katrina frightened people reported rumor as fact and soldiers, police and even elected officials believed what they heard and passed it on. In the hell that descended after Katrina, almost anything, no matter how horrific, seemed possible.

But now that we know better, it's essential that people like Mayor Nagin and Superintendent Compass set the record straight, just as forcefully. That might mean saying, "I spoke too soon'' or even, "I exaggerated.'' The latter certainly seems to be true of Superintendent Compass' claim that he and other officers wrestled 30 weapons away from criminals by using the follow-the-muzzle flash technique. Last week, the superintendent insisted that such an incident had happened to Capt. Jeff Winn's 20-member SWAT team, but in a separate interview Capt. Winn said that his unit saw flashes and heard gunshots only once and recovered no weapons.

Hurricane Katrina and its aftermath has more than enough human drama, from heroism to depravity, without embellishment. The people of Louisiana need solid information and credible leaders as we move toward recovery. Katrina inflicted a lot of damage on the truth, and that's just one more mess we need to clean up.

Link

[Hero1]

you wonder why mayor nagin would have been exaggerating the violence..its his own city..normally you'd expect officials like that to be covering **** up.. :hmm:

[Cozmo D]

you wonder why mayor nagin would have been exaggerating the violence..its his own city..normally you'd expect officials like that to be covering **** up.. :hmm:

The man is inept. New Orleans and Louisiana are well known for electing corrupt and inept politicians and officials.

[Chief]

naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwww

[Hero1]

well compass has resigned... :word:

[Cozmo D]

Police Chief Abruptly Resigns in New Orleans

During the first few days, as local officials grappled with the overwhelming disaster, Mr. Nagin and Mr. Compass were outspoken about how desperate the situation in their city was, though some of those statements are now coming under scrutiny, with some critics saying they exaggerated the situation.

An editorial in The Times Picayune today faulted the two New Orleans officials for their leadership during those first few days, and for their public statements about the direness of the situation.

"It's understandable that in the tense and fractured days after Katrina, frightened people reported rumor as fact, and soldiers, police and even elected officials believed what they heard and passed it on." the editorial said. "In the hell that descended after Katrina, almost anything, no matter how horrific, seemed possible.

"But now that we know better, it's essential that people like Mayor Nagin and Superintendent Compass set the record straight, just as forcefully. That might mean saying, 'I spoke too soon" or even, 'I exaggerated,' " the editorial said.

The newspaper said that during an interview by Oprah Winfrey, Mr. Compass said "that babies were being raped."

"Thank God it didn't happen," the editorial said.

Last Thursday, as he waited for Mayor Nagin to begin a press conference, Superintendent Compass held court with reporters, and he was asked about reports of rapes and murders at the city's Convention Center and the Superdome, where people had fled to escape the flooding.

He said those reports had been overstated.

"We have no official reports to document any murder," Superintendent Compass said. "Not one official report of rape or sexual assault."

Yet on Sept. 1, he told reporters that at the convention center: "We have individuals who are getting raped, we have individuals who are getting beaten. Tourists are walking in that direction, and they are getting preyed upon."

Link

[Cozmo D]

Some Reports of N.O. Violence Exaggerated

A week after the floodwaters poured into the city, an Arkansas National Guardsman told The Times-Picayune of New Orleans that soldiers had discovered 30 to 40 bodies inside a freezer in the convention center's food area. Guardsman Mikel Brooks told the newspaper that some of the dead appeared to have met violent ends, including "a 7-year-old with her throat cut."

When the convention center was swept, however, no such pile of bodies was found.

Lt. Col. Jacques Thibodeaux of the Louisiana National Guard said reports of violence at the Superdome and the convention center were overblown. He was head of security at the Superdome and led the 1,000 military police and infantrymen who went in to secure the center on Sept. 2.

"The incidents were highly exaggerated" _ the result of fear and hopelessness, he said. "For the amount of the people in the situation, it was a very stable environment."

Thibodeaux said his guard unit received no reports of rape.

Link

[Cozmo D]

Fear Exceeded Crime's Reality in New Orleans

NEW ORLEANS, Sept. 25 - After the storm came the siege. In the days after Hurricane Katrina, terror from crimes seen and unseen, real and rumored, gripped New Orleans. The fears changed troop deployments, delayed medical evacuations, drove police officers to quit, grounded helicopters. Edwin P. Compass III, the police superintendent, said that tourists - the core of the city's economy - were being robbed and raped on streets that had slid into anarchy.

The mass misery in the city's two unlit and uncooled primary shelters, the convention center and the Superdome, was compounded, officials said, by gangs that were raping women and children.

A month later, a review of the available evidence now shows that some, though not all, of the most alarming stories that coursed through the city appear to be little more than figments of frightened imaginations, the product of chaotic circumstances that included no reliable communications, and perhaps the residue of the longstanding raw relations between some police officers and members of the public.

To assemble a picture of crime, both real and perceived, The New York Times interviewed dozens of evacuees in four cities, police officers, medical workers and city officials. Though many provided concrete, firsthand accounts, others passed along secondhand information or rumor that after multiple tellings had ossified into what became accepted as fact.

What became clear is that the rumor of crime, as much as the reality of the public disorder, often played a powerful role in the emergency response. A team of paramedics was barred from entering Slidell, across Lake Pontchartrain from New Orleans, for nearly 10 hours based on a state trooper's report that a mob of armed, marauding people had commandeered boats. It turned out to be two men escaping from their flooded streets, said Farol Champlin, a paramedic with the Acadian Ambulance Company.

On another occasion, the company's ambulances were locked down after word came that a firehouse in Covington had been looted by armed robbers of all its water - a report that proved totally untrue, said Aaron Labatt, another paramedic.

A contingent of National Guard troops was sent to rescue a St. Bernard Parish deputy sheriff who radioed for help, saying he was pinned down by a sniper. Accompanied by a SWAT team, the troops surrounded the area. The shots turned out to be the relief valve on a gas tank that popped open every few minutes, said Maj. Gen. Ron Mason of the 35th Infantry Division of the Kansas National Guard.

"It's part of human nature," General Mason said. "When you get one or two reports, it echoes around the community."

Faced with reports that 400 to 500 armed looters were advancing on the town of Westwego, two police officers quit on the spot. The looters never appeared, said the Westwego police chief, Dwayne Munch.

"Rumors could tear down an entire army," Chief Munch said.

During six days when the Superdome was used as a shelter, the head of the New Orleans Police Department's sex crimes unit, Lt. David Benelli, said he and his officers lived inside the dome and ran down every rumor of rape or atrocity. In the end, they made two arrests for attempted sexual assault, and concluded that the other attacks had not happened.

"I think it was urban myth," said Lieutenant Benelli, who also heads the police union. "Any time you put 25,000 people under one roof, with no running water, no electricity and no information, stories get told."

Link

[Hero1]

Coz putting the nails in the coffin one by one :lolsign: :lolsign: :lolsign:

[Cozmo D]

Rumors of deaths greatly exaggerated

Widely reported attacks false or unsubstantiated

6 bodies found at Dome; 4 at Convention Center

By Brian Thevenot

and Gordon Russell

Staff writers

After five days managing near-riots, medical horrors and unspeakable living conditions inside the Superdome, Louisiana National Guard Col. Thomas Beron prepared to hand over the dead to representatives of the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

Following days of internationally reported killings, rapes and gang violence inside the Dome, the doctor from FEMA - Beron doesn't remember his name - came prepared for a grisly scene: He brought a refrigerated 18-wheeler and three doctors to process bodies.

"I've got a report of 200 bodies in the Dome," Beron recalls the doctor saying.

The real total was six, Beron said.

Of those, four died of natural causes, one overdosed and another jumped to his death in an apparent suicide, said Beron, who personally oversaw the turning over of bodies from a Dome freezer, where they lay atop melting bags of ice. State health department officials in charge of body recovery put the official death count at the Dome at 10, but Beron said the other four bodies were found in the street near the Dome, not inside it. Both sources said no one had been killed inside.

At the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center, just four bodies were recovered, despites reports of corpses piled inside the building. Only one of the dead appeared to have been slain, said health and law enforcement officials.

That the nation's front-line emergency management believed the body count would resemble that of a bloody battle in a war is but one of scores of examples of myths about the Dome and the Convention Center treated as fact by evacuees, the media and even some of New Orleans' top officials, including the mayor and police superintendent. As the fog of warlike conditions in Hurricane Katrina's aftermath has cleared, the vast majority of reported atrocities committed by evacuees have turned out to be false, or at least unsupported by any evidence, according to key military, law enforcement, medical and civilian officials in positions to know.

"I think 99 percent of it is bulls---," said Sgt. 1st Class Jason Lachney, who played a key role in security and humanitarian work inside the Dome. "Don't get me wrong, bad things happened, but I didn't see any killing and raping and cutting of throats or anything. ... Ninety-nine percent of the people in the Dome were very well-behaved."

Dr. Louis Cataldie, the state Health and Human Services Department administrator overseeing the body recovery operation, said his teams were inundated with false reports about the Dome and Convention Center.

"We swept both buildings several times, because we kept getting reports of more bodies there," Cataldie said. "But it just wasn't the case."

Orleans Parish District Attorney Eddie Jordan said authorities had confirmed only four murders in New Orleans in the aftermath of Katrina - making it a typical week in a city that anticipated more than 200 homicides this year. Jordan expressed outrage at reports from many national media outlets that suffering flood victims had turned into mobs of unchecked savages.

"I had the impression that at least 40 or 50 murders had occurred at the two sites," he said. "It's unfortunate we saw these kinds of stories saying crime had taken place on a massive scale when that wasn't the case. And they (national media outlets) have done nothing to follow up on any of these cases, they just accepted what people (on the street) told them. ... It's not consistent with the highest standards of journalism."

As floodwaters forced tens of thousands of evacuees into the Dome and Convention Center, news of unspeakable acts poured out of the nation's media: evacuees firing at helicopters trying to save them; women, children and even babies raped with abandon; people killed for food and water; a 7-year-old raped and killed at the Convention Center. Police, according to their chief, Eddie Compass, found themselves in multiple shootouts inside both shelters, and were forced to race toward muzzle flashes through the dark to disarm the criminals; snipers supposedly fired at doctors and soldiers from downtown high-rises.

In interviews with Oprah Winfrey, Compass reported rapes of "babies," and Mayor Ray Nagin spoke of "hundreds of armed gang members" killing and raping people inside the Dome. Unidentified evacuees told of children stepping over so many bodies, "we couldn't count."

The picture that emerged was one of the impoverished, masses of flood victims resorting to utter depravity, randomly attacking each other, as well as the police trying to protect them and the rescue workers trying to save them. Nagin told Winfrey the crowd has descended to an "almost animalistic state."

Four weeks after the storm, few of the widely reported atrocities have been backed with evidence. The piles of bodies never materialized, and soldiers, police officers and rescue personnel on the front lines say that although anarchy reigned at times and people suffered unimaginable indignities, most of the worst crimes reported at the time never happened.

Military, law enforcement and medical workers agree that the flood of evacuees - about 30,000 at the Dome and an estimated 10,000 to 20,000 at the Convention Center - overwhelmed their security personnel. The 400 to 500 soldiers in the Dome could have been easily overrun by increasingly agitated crowds, but that never happened, said Col. James Knotts, a midlevel commander there. Security was nonexistent at the Convention Center, which was never designated as a shelter. Authorities provided no food, water or medical care until troops secured the building the Friday after the storm.

While the Convention Center saw plenty of mischief, including massive looting and isolated gunfire, and many inside cowered in fear, the hordes of evacuees for the most part did not resort to violence, as legend has it.

"Everything was embellished, everything was exaggerated," said Deputy Police Superintendent Warren Riley. "If one guy said he saw six bodies, then another guy the same six, and another guy saw them - then that became 18."

Soldier shot - by himself

Inside the Dome, where National Guardsmen performed rigorous security checks before allowing anyone inside, only one shooting has been verified. Even that incident, in which Louisiana Guardsman Chris Watt of the 527th Engineer Battalion was injured, has been widely misreported, said Maj. David Baldwin, who led the team of soldiers who arrested a suspect.

Watt was attacked inside one of the Dome's locker rooms, which he entered with another soldier. In the darkness, as he walked through about six inches of water, Watt was attacked with a metal rod, a piece of a cot. But the bullet that penetrated Watt's leg came from his own gun - he accidentally shot himself in the commotion. The attacker never took his gun from him, Baldwin said. New Orleans police investigated the matter fully and sent the suspect to jail in Breaux Bridge, Baldwin said.

As for other shootings, Baldwin said, "We actively patrolled 24 hours a day, and nobody heard another shot."

Doug Thornton, regional vice president of SMG, which manages the Dome, walked the complex from before the storm until the final evacuation and kept a meticulous journal. In a Sept. 9 interview, he said he heard reports of rapes and killings, but they were unconfirmed and came from evacuees and security officials.

"We walked through the facility every day, and we didn't see all this that was being reported," said Thornton, one of about 35 Dome employees who rode out Katrina in the building and lived there in the days after the storm hit. "We never felt threatened. It's hard to determine what's real and what's not real."

No victims

Inside the Convention Center, the rumors of widespread violence have proved hard to substantiate, as well, though the masses of evacuees endured terrifying and inhumane conditions.

Jimmie Fore, vice president of the state authority that runs the Convention Center, stayed in the building with a core group of 35 employees until Sept. 1, the Thursday after Katrina. He was appalled by what he saw. Thugs hotwired 75 forklifts and electric carts and looted food and booze from every room in the building, but he said he never saw any violent crimes committed, and neither did any of his employees. Some, however, did report seeing armed men roaming the building, and Fore said he heard gunshots in the distance on at about six occasions.

NOPD Capt. Jeff Winn's 20-member SWAT team responded on about 10 occasions to calls from the Convention Center, usually after reports of shots being fired. The group found people huddled in the fetal position, lying flat on the ground to avoid bullets or running for the exits. They also heard stories of gang rapes, armed robberies and other violent crimes, but no victims ever came forward while his officers were in the building, he said.

"What's true and what's not, we don't really know," he said.

Rumors of rampant violence at the Convention Center prompted Louisiana National Guard Lt. Col. Jacques Thibodeaux put together a 1,000-man force of soldiers and police in full battle gear to secure the center Sept. 2 at about noon.

It took only 20 minutes to take control, and soldiers met no resistance, Thibodeaux said. What the soldiers found - elderly people and infants near death without food, water and medicine; crowds living in filth - shocked them more than anything they'd seen in combat zones overseas. But they found no evidence, witnesses or victims of any killings, rapes or beatings, Thibodeaux said.

Another commander at the scene, Lt. Col. John Edwards of the Arkansas National Guard, said the crowd welcomed the soldiers. "It reminded me of the liberation of France in World War II. There were people cheering; one boy even saluted," he said. "We never - never once - encountered any hostility."

One widely circulated tale, told to The Times-Picayune by a slew of evacuees and two Arkansas National Guardsmen, held that "30 or 40 bodies" were stored in a Convention Center freezer. But a formal Arkansas Guard review of the matter later found that no soldier had actually seen the corpses, and that the information came from rumors in the food line for military, police and rescue workers in front of Harrah's New Orleans Casino, said Edwards, who conducted the review.

It's possible more than four people died at the Convention Center. Fore, the center's vice president, said he saw another body outside the building early in the first week after the storm, covered in a shroud on the pavement along Julia Street, near the back of the Convention Center. It's unclear whether that body ended up in the nearby food service entrance, where the four confirmed bodies were found later.

Also, several news organizations reported the body of 91-year-old Booker T. Harris, which sat covered in a chair on Convention Center Boulevard for several days after he died on the back of a truck while being evacuated.

Just one of the dead appeared to be the victim of foul play, said Winn, one of few law enforcement officers who spent any time patrolling the Convention Center before it was secured. Winn, who did the final sweep of the building, said one body appeared to have stab wounds, but he could not be sure. Baldwin also said only one of the dead appeared to have been slain, apparently referring to the same body as Winn described. Bob Johannessen, spokesman for the Department of Health and Hospitals, also confirmed just one suspected homicide at the Convention Center, though he said the victim had been shot, not stabbed.

A Washington Post report quoted another soldier who concluded that three of the four people appeared to have been beaten to death, including an older woman in a wheelchair.

But Spc. Mikel Brooks, an Arkansas Guardsman who said he wheeled the woman's dead body into the food service entrance, said she appeared to have died of natural causes. Brooks went on to say that the woman had expired sitting next to her husband, who shocked him by asking him to bring the wheelchair back.

The Post also cited evacuee Tony Cash and three other unnamed sources saying a young boy died of an asthma attack, but multiple officials could not confirm that death.

One attack thwarted

Reports of dozens of rapes at both facilities - many allegedly involving small children - may forever remain a question mark. Rape is a notoriously underreported crime under ideal circumstances, and tracking down evidence at this point, with evacuees spread all over the country, would be nearly impossible. The same goes for reports of armed robberies at both sites.

Numerous people told The Times-Picayune that they had witnessed rapes, in particular attacks on two young girls in the Superdome ladies room and the killing of one of them, but police and military officials said they know nothing of such an incident.

Soldiers and police did confirm at least one attempted rape of a child. Riley said a man tried to sexually assault a young girl, but was "beaten up" by civilians and apprehended by police. It was unclear if that incident was the one that gained wide currency among evacuees.

Baldwin, the National Guard commander of a special reaction team patrolling the Dome, also said he knew of only one attempted sexual assault of a child - but the details of his story, while similar, differed somewhat from that of Riley. It was unclear last week whether the two men spoke about the same incident.

Soldiers apprehended the assailant after a "commotion" in the bathroom exposed him, Baldwin said, but he knew nothing about the man being beaten. Furthermore, in a detail that raises questions about whether officials have full knowledge of any sex crimes, Baldwin said his men turned over one alleged child molester to New Orleans police - only to find him again inside the Dome two days later, reportedly attempting to molest other children.

"We ran into the same guy a couple days later," he said. "The crowd came to us and said, 'You better do something with this guy or we're going to do something with him.' ... That kind of re-confirmed (the first allegation), when the crowd came to us saying he was putting his hands on kids."

But other accusations that have gained wide currency are more demonstrably false. For instance, no one found the body of a girl - whose age was estimated at anywhere from 7 to 13 - who, according to multiple reports, was raped and killed with a knife to the throat at the Convention Center.

Many evacuees at the Convention Center the morning of Sept. 3 treated the story as gospel, and ticked off further atrocities: a baby trampled to death, multiple child rapes.

Salvatore Hall, standing on the corner of Julia Street and Convention Center Boulevard that day, just before the evacuation, said, "They raped and killed a 10-year-old in the bathroom."

Neither he nor the many people around him who corroborated the killing had seen it themselves.

Talk of rape and killing inside the Dome was so pervasive that it prompted a steady stream of evacuees to begin leaving Aug. 31, braving thigh-high foul waters on Poydras Street. Many said they were headed back to homes in flooded neighborhoods.

"There's people getting raped and killed in there," said Lisa Washington of Algiers, who had come to the Dome with about 25 relatives and friends. "People are getting diseases. It's like we're in Afghanistan. We're fighting for our lives right now."

One of her relatives nodded. "They've had about 14 rapes in there," he said.

The official word

In many cases, authorities gave credibility to portraits of violence broadcast around the world.

Compass told Winfrey on Sept. 6 that "some of the little babies (are) getting raped" in the Dome. Nagin backed it with his own tale of horrors: ''They have people standing out there, have been in that frickin' Superdome for five days watching dead bodies, watching hooligans killing people, raping people.''

But both men have since pulled back to a degree.

"The information I had at the time, I thought it was credible," Compass said, conceding his earlier statements were false. Asked for the source of the information, Compass said he didn't remember.

Nagin frankly acknowledged that he doesn't know the extent of the mayhem that occurred inside the Dome and the Convention Center - and may never.

"I'm having a hard time getting a good body count," he said.

Compass said rumors had often crippled authorities' response to reported lawlessness, sending badly needed resources to respond to situations that turned out not to exist. He offered his own intensely personal example: The day after the storm, he heard "some civilians" talking about how a band of armed thugs had invaded the Ritz-Carlton hotel and started raping women - including his 24-year-old daughter, who stayed there through the storm. He rushed to the scene only to find that although a group of men had tried to enter the hotel, they weren't armed and were easily turned back by police.

Compass, however, promulgated some of the unfounded rumors himself, in interviews in which he characterized himself and his officers as outgunned warriors taking out armed bands of thugs at every turn.

"People would be shooting at us, and we couldn't shoot back because of the families," Compass told a reporter from the (Bridgeport) Connecticut Post who interviewed him at the Saints' Monday Night Football game in New York, where he was the guest of NFL Commissioner Paul Tagliabue. "All we could do is rush toward the flash."

Compass added that he and his officers succeeded in wrestling 30 weapons from criminals using the follow-the-muzzle-flash technique, the story said.

"We got 30 that way," Compass was quoted as saying.

Asked about the muzzle-flash story last week, Compass said, "That really happened" to Winn's SWAT team at the Convention Center.

But Winn, when asked about alleged shootouts in a separate interview, said his unit saw muzzle flashes and heard gunshots only one time. Despite aggressively frisking a number of suspects, the team recovered no weapons. His unit never found anyone who had been shot.

Many soldiers and humanitarian workers now agree that although a number of bad actors committed violent or criminal acts, the evacuees responded well considering the hell they endured.

"These people - our people - did nothing wrong," said Sherry Watters of the state Department of Social Services, who was working with the medical unit at the Dome and noted the crowd's mounting frustration. "No human should have to live like that for even a minute."

Crowds pitch in

As the authorities finally mobilized buses to evacuate the Dome on Sept. 2, many evacuees were nearing the breaking point. Baldwin said soldiers could not have controlled the crowd much longer. They ejected a handful of people attempting to start a riot, screaming at soldiers and pushing crowds to revolt.

"We're not prisoners of war - y'all are treating us like evacuees and detainees!" he recalled one of them shouting.

But many others sought to quiet such voices. On the deck outside the Dome on Sept. 1, the day before buses arrived, preachers took it upon themselves to lead the agitated crowd in prayer and song.

"Everybody needs to help the soldiers," Baldwin recalled one of them saying. "We're all family here."

About 15 others joined the medical operation, as people collapsed from heat and exhaustion every few minutes, Baldwin said.

"Some of these guys look like thugs, with pants hanging down around their asses," he said. "But they were working their asses off, grabbing litters and running with people to the (New Orleans) Arena" next door, which housed the medical operation.

As the Dome cleared out Sept. 3, Beron, the National Guard commander, fashioned a plan to deal with the dead. He knew of the six bodies in the freezer, but expected far more. He and an Ohio National Guard commander sent 450 Ohio troops to search every nook of the Dome, top to bottom. They told them to mark locations of bodies on a map of the Dome, to rope off suspected crime scenes, and leave a chemical light sticks next to each one so they could be retrieved later.

"I fully expected to find more bodies, both homicides and natural causes," he said.

They found nothing.

Staff writers Jeff Duncan and Gwen Filosa contributed to this report.

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[Chief]

*fat lady sings*

[Cozmo D]

News of Pandemonium May Have Slowed Aid

Five weeks after Hurricane Katrina laid waste to New Orleans, some local, state and federal officials have come to believe that exaggerations of mayhem by officials and rumors repeated uncritically in the news media helped slow the response to the disaster and tarnish the image of many of its victims.

Claims of widespread looting, gunfire directed at helicopters and rescuers, homicides, and rapes, including those of "babies" at the Louisiana Superdome, frequently turned out to be overblown, if not completely untrue, officials now say.

The sensational accounts delayed rescue and evacuation efforts already hampered by poor planning and a lack of coordination among local, state and federal agencies. People rushing to the Gulf Coast to fly rescue helicopters or to distribute food, water and other aid steeled themselves for battle. In communities near and far, the seeds were planted that the victims of Katrina should be kept away, or at least handled with extreme caution.

"Rumor control was a beast for us," said Maj. Ed Bush of the Louisiana National Guard, who was stationed at the Superdome. "People would hear something on the radio and come and say that people were getting raped in the bathroom or someone had been murdered. I would say, 'Ma'am, where?' I would tell them if there were bodies, my guys would find it. Everybody heard, nobody saw. Logic was out the window because the situation was illogical."

CNN reported repeatedly on Sept. 1, three days after Katrina ravaged New Orleans, that evacuations at the Superdome were suspended because "someone fired a shot at a helicopter." But Louisiana National Guard officials on the ground at the time now say that no helicopters came under attack and that evacuations were never stopped because of gunfire.

Later that morning, during a briefing carried live on local radio and local and national television, Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-La.) said, "We have gotten reports, but unconfirmed, of some of our deputies and sheriffs that have either been injured or killed." Of the thousands of law enforcement officials who converged on New Orleans, only one was shot. The wound to the leg was self-inflicted in a struggle, a spokesman for the Guard said last week.

The Washington Post, in a Sept. 1 front-page article, noted that evacuees at the Superdome were repeating rumors of rapes and killings but quoted Maj. Bush as saying "none of that" occurred. A Sept. 15 front-page story said the precise number of people who died in the convention center was not known at the time, but officials believed it could be as many as 10.

Lt. Gen. Russel L. Honore, commander of Joint Task Force Katrina, said that reporters got bogged down trying to tell people how bad the situation was rather than "gathering facts and corroborating that information."

"The television stations were reporting that people were literally stepping over bodies and violence was out of control," said Blanco press secretary Denise Bottcher, who was at the governor's side. "But the National Guardsmen were saying that what we were seeing on CNN was contradictory to what they were seeing. It didn't match up."

Violent crimes with a weapon, such as aggravated battery, numbered only a few dozen, Letten said. Officials made arrests for a double homicide and two rapes in Jefferson Parish and one rape in Orleans Parish, said Pam Laborde of the Louisiana Department of Corrections. Federal agents arrested a man for shooting at a helicopter, on Sept. 5. But several officials, including Blanco, now believe that some of the gunfire people reported in the city was attempts to signal rescuers because residents have told them so.

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Edited October 6, 2005 by Cozmo D