MaxFly...Ohhhh the hypocrisy!

[Hero1]

hey maxfly all you have to do is admit that the reports of crime were grossly over exaggerated..and maybe you were a little too quick to believe these stories..and its all over :gettinjiggywitit: I knew the truth would come out eventually..and it has.. I get a feeling this debate is gonna go into the new millennium tho :sick:

[MaxFly]

Your willingness to believe that black people en-masse committed the purported horrors and atrocities, even in the face of evidence to the CONTRARY is PROOF of your racist perceptions, I can't say it any plainer than that, and I have said it now many times. You may say that the fact that these people were black had no bearing on your perceptions, but I don't believe you and I highly doubt if anybody else here does either.

By assuming the guilt of the populace there, without any evidence or reasoning beyond that of rumor, you showed your inclination to believe the worst of that populace. By INSISTING on the guilt of that populace DESPITE HARD EVIDENCE that showed that populace to be INNOCENT, you showed your DEDICATION to believe the worst of that populace. You may very well claim that under the same circumstances you would believe the same of white people, but I don't believe you, and why should I.

First I didn't insist on the guilt of the populace. Don't put words in my mouth. From the very beginning, I expressed that any crimes taking place in New Orleans were the act of a those who would take advantage of the horrible situation post Katrina for selfish reasons. The populace at large were victims, but there were a few who used the situation to their advantage. You are trying to twist that into saying that I was attempting to demonize the public. The demagoguery is obvious, and I don't think it will be lost on those reading this. Again, this is why when you say that you deal in "facts," you have to forgive me for being skeptical.

I'll state what I posted in the other thread you created.

Here lies the break down in the logic of your "racist perceptions" theory. The race of those in New Orleans had absolutely nothing to do with what I believed to be the case in terms of crime in the city. I wasn't more willing to believe these things because the population was largely black. Your only link to "racist perceptions" is the word "black" in statements such as "You went even further by being willing to believe that black people were capable of these horrible atrocities even with EVIDENCE THAT THEY NEVER HAPPENED..."

However, I have not said anything intimating that I believed these things because black people were said to be involved. Again, your claims are merely asinine personal attacks that are completely baseless, but it doesn't surprise me.

Incidentally, if you think I actually care whether you believe me or not, keep thinking that... I find it amusing.

The one thing that you have yet to answer is WHY DID YOU BELIEVE IT EVEN WHEN ALL OF THE AVAILABLE EVIDENCE POINTED AGAINST IT? To the point that you even ridiculed that evidence and me for presenting it? If it wasn't because these people were black then give us a reason for your totally illogical position. :shrug:

Why did I believe these things to be true? I'll first reiterate that it has nothing to do with the race of those who were believed to be involved in crimes. That being said, police officers, local government officials, and citizens themselves had attested to many of these things, making definitive and unambiguous statement. The first contrary evidence was that there were not official reports. Considering that New Orleans had no real way to report crime, and lacked a police force capable of carrying out any serious investigations, this "evidence" was suspect.

Further evidence of a lack of bodies found in the convention centers and the superdome was more believeable and more easily verifiable, yet these didn't address things that took place outside of those two sites. The evidence simply wasn't expansive enough to speak on the conditions in New Orleans as a whole, as the claims of violence and disorder spanned beyond just those two sites and the majority of troops were commited to areas other than those two sites.

hey maxfly all you have to do is admit that the reports of crime were grossly over exaggerated..and maybe you were a little too quick to believe these stories..and its all over :gettinjiggywitit: I knew the truth would come out eventually..and it has.. I get a feeling this debate is gonna go into the new millennium tho :sick:

I've already admitted it Tim. It's the "racist perceptions" theory I'm trying to clarify. You have to admit, it's a heinous accusation, especially since I haven't said anything that would intimate that race was a factor in what I belived. It also doesn't mean that the government's slow response was due to racism. I suspect that Cozmo's goal is to link something... anything... to racism by the end of this discussion.

[MaxFly]

im probably really stupid to jump in on this one, and just so Max knows i only scan read your posts so if anything is wrong please dont kill me haha.

But on this shoot to kill subject, i dont know if the news got to usa but after the attacks on London the police were looking for the people that did it and made security better. They were watching a house that had suspected terrorist activity. A man came out of the house and they told him to stop, but he didnt and he ran. The police shot and killed him and it turned out he was completely innocent. He shouldnt have ran and im not sure why he did but theres this huge thing now in the UK about police shooting to kill. They get it wrong and shoot before they ask questions.

I know, I've followed it pretty closely. You make a reasonable point. Shoot to kill is definitely not desireable, and it's certainly not something that people here in the US would readily accept. The potential that it could be abused or misapplied is there. At the same time, New Orleans wasn't a standard situation.

I posted this in another thread, but shoot to kill in the US comes with a few caveats when involving National Guard troops...

Shoot to kill orders are usually accompanied with specific rules of engagement, clarifying exatly under what conditions troops are allowed to kill civilians. By and large, the only conditions are those where troops believe themselves to be in evident danger, under armed attack or where the lives of others are in danger. As we saw in New Orleans, the general rules of engagement seemed to be largely followed even in absence of veritable martial law.

Given the fact that there was lawlessness in New Orleans, they were given the proper orders. In absence of shoot to kill, there is no other directive. There is no such thing as shoot to injure. Shoot to kill is basically a term used to imply zero tolerance of crime. Even in the absense of specific shoot to kill orders, similar directives or rules of engagement would have been carried out in New Orleans, just quietly.

Cozmo pointed out that the result of shoot to kill in such situations is usually dead Americans, however the purpose of these orders is to ultimately minimize the number of lives lost and to preserve order. For the most part, things worked well in New Orleans.

I guess that the concern would be that a passive policing presence would lead to a more aggresive and escalating criminal presence in whatever form it manifests itself.

[Hero1]

okay lets wrap these discussions up then.. I think its gone on way 2 long :whew: :2thumbs:

[Cozmo D]

Your willingness to believe that black people en-masse committed the purported horrors and atrocities, even in the face of evidence to the CONTRARY is PROOF of your racist perceptions, I can't say it any plainer than that, and I have said it now many times. You may say that the fact that these people were black had no bearing on your perceptions, but I don't believe you and I highly doubt if anybody else here does either.

By assuming the guilt of the populace there, without any evidence or reasoning beyond that of rumor, you showed your inclination to believe the worst of that populace. By INSISTING on the guilt of that populace DESPITE HARD EVIDENCE that showed that populace to be INNOCENT, you showed your DEDICATION to believe the worst of that populace. You may very well claim that under the same circumstances you would believe the same of white people, but I don't believe you, and why should I.

First I didn't insist on the guilt of the populace. Don't put words in my mouth. From the very beginning, I expressed that any crimes taking place in New Orleans were the act of a those who would take advantage of the horrible situation post Katrina for selfish reasons. The populace at large were victims, but there were a few who used the situation to their advantage. You are trying to twist that into saying that I was attempting to demonize the public. The demagoguery is obvious, and I don't think it will be lost on those reading this. Again, this is why when you say that you deal in "facts," you have to forgive me for being skeptical.

I'll state what I posted in the other thread you created.

Here lies the break down in the logic of your "racist perceptions" theory. The race of those in New Orleans had absolutely nothing to do with what I believed to be the case in terms of crime in the city. I wasn't more willing to believe these things because the population was largely black. Your only link to "racist perceptions" is the word "black" in statements such as "You went even further by being willing to believe that black people were capable of these horrible atrocities even with EVIDENCE THAT THEY NEVER HAPPENED..."

However, I have not said anything intimating that I believed these things because black people were said to be involved. Again, your claims are merely asinine personal attacks that are completely baseless, but it doesn't surprise me.

Incidentally, if you think I actually care whether you believe me or not, keep thinking that... I find it amusing.

The one thing that you have yet to answer is WHY DID YOU BELIEVE IT EVEN WHEN ALL OF THE AVAILABLE EVIDENCE POINTED AGAINST IT? To the point that you even ridiculed that evidence and me for presenting it? If it wasn't because these people were black then give us a reason for your totally illogical position. :shrug:

Why did I believe these things to be true? I'll first reiterate that it has nothing to do with the race of those who were believed to be involved in crimes. That being said, police officers, local government officials, and citizens themselves had attested to many of these things, making definitive and unambiguous statement. The first contrary evidence was that there were not official reports. Considering that New Orleans had no real way to report crime, and lacked a police force capable of carrying out any serious investigations, this "evidence" was suspect.

Further evidence of a lack of bodies found in the convention centers and the superdome was more believeable and more easily verifiable, yet these didn't address things that took place outside of those two sites. The evidence simply wasn't expansive enough to speak on the conditions in New Orleans as a whole, as the claims of violence and disorder spanned beyond just those two sites and the majority of troops were commited to areas other than those two sites.

hey maxfly all you have to do is admit that the reports of crime were grossly over exaggerated..and maybe you were a little too quick to believe these stories..and its all over :gettinjiggywitit: I knew the truth would come out eventually..and it has.. I get a feeling this debate is gonna go into the new millennium tho :sick:

I've already admitted it Tim. It's the "racist perceptions" theory I'm trying to clarify. You have to admit, it's a heinous accusation, especially since I haven't said anything that would intimate that race was a factor in what I belived. It also doesn't mean that the government's slow response was due to racism. I suspect that Cozmo's goal is to link something... anything... to racism by the end of this discussion.

You may have admitted that the reports were wrong, but you have yet to admit that YOU were wrong. You have yet to put YOURSELF on blast for standing by something that has been shown to be inaccurate or ambiguous.

As for the racist perceptions thing, fine, I don't believe you. I think that you have racist perceptions and your actions here have proven it. I think America has racist perceptions and OUR actions here have proven it. That is all that I said from the very beginning and the evidence has and is continuing to support my position. It is a position formed from many years of intensely studying the racial climate in this country. It was impossible to conceive of Americans raping and murdering babies, but the fact that these Americans were black made the impossible possible.

I'm through, except to say this. You should try to show a little respect to your forum mates from now on. They could be right just as easily as you could be wrong.

EZ,

Coz

[Turntable]

I honestly don't get what this is all about......

Girl..I feel you :lolsign:

[PeaceAngel]

I honestly don't get what this is all about......

Girl..I feel you :lolsign:

I'm glad I'm not the only one who's confused :lolsign:

[Turntable]

I honestly don't get what this is all about......

Girl..I feel you :lolsign:

I'm glad I'm not the only one who's confused :lolsign:

Yeah well...just remeber..We are very special and misunderstood Persons. :lolsign:

[PeaceAngel]

I honestly don't get what this is all about......

Girl..I feel you :lolsign:

I'm glad I'm not the only one who's confused :lolsign:

Yeah well...just remeber..We are very special and misunderstood Persons. :lolsign:

For sure :lolsign:

[MaxFly]

You may have admitted that the reports were wrong, but you have yet to admit that YOU were wrong. You have yet to put YOURSELF on blast for standing by something that has been shown to be inaccurate or ambiguous.

As for the racist perceptions thing, fine, I don't believe you. I think that you have racist perceptions and your actions here have proven it. I think America has racist perceptions and OUR actions here have proven it. That is all that I said from the very beginning and the evidence has and is continuing to support my position. It is a position formed from many years of intensely studying the racial climate in this country. It was impossible to conceive of Americans raping and murdering babies, but the fact that these Americans were black made the impossible possible.

I'm through, except to say this. You should try to show a little respect to your forum mates from now on. They could be right just as easily as you could be wrong.

EZ,

Coz

By admiting that the reports were wrong, I've already admited that I was wrong to accept the level of crime that was reported. There are about 4-6 pages in the original thread with my stance. I've admited that with the newest reports concerning the level of crime, my original stance was wrong.

Concerning the topic of "racist perceptions," all I can do is state the truth. Whether you choose to believe it or not is up to you. I don't know you, you don't know me, and so this opinion of yours is of no significance. You've chosen to make this personal. That's fine.

Concerning the govenment's slow response, my prior statements stand.

Concerning Kanye's statements on national television, my stance remains the same as well.

Concerning my being able to conceive of the actocities human beings can commmit... I've seen enough first hand to realize that human beings are capable of anything, whether good or bad, irrespective of race.

As to whether I respect my forum mates, I've made it abundantly clear to everyone my level of respect, both privately and openly. Again, the demagoguery is noted. Thanks.