Cozmo D Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 hey Cozmo i put the song up for you so u can listen to it if you want http://s16.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1HDI44X...DP183HUE4K9PVEX Thanx R2R, that helped a LOT! OK, this was a MAJOR hook in the record, it would require much more than a mere phone call. It was not just lyrics, it was melody as well. If it's mine, GIMME mine! However, from Tim defining the situation for me, it's clear that what went down is a bit different than what you guys are saying. The main culprit in this suit was Bobby Robinson, who was claiming sole writing and publishing credit for the ORIGINAL song. This means that Will and Sony most likely did what they were supposed to do by giving credit AND publishing, just to the wrong guy. Of course, F5 will sue anybody and everybody involved in order to ensure that they get all of what they deserve. If it turns out as it seems that Bobby Robinson mislead Will and Sony by telling them that he actually had sole ownership, Will and Sony can then sue him to recover damages. Didn't UTFO get credit though? I was sure that he did credit them, Wait a minute, let me check the credits.... :pony: Does Jay-Z really credit Biggie everytime he says a line of his though? There's a HUGE difference between a line and a hook. You can't copyright 1 line of lyrics, but you can copyright a group of lines. In this case Will used a group of lines that was equivalent to 12 bars. Used it twice too. It's an open and shut case. Mixtapes are kind of an iffy area, though. for the most part, no one does. Mixtapes are for the most part pure copyright infringement, but they're just not worth pursuing in court. The small street level ones are a waste of time and money to sue for, and the larger ones have developed into good promotional tools, so copyright and sound rights owners will usually just sign off on them. No I thought he meant, lets say I sample a harold melvin track, for a beat, and then someone Flows over it, and I put it on the Mixtape. Now I don't clear the HM smaple, but I'm just making the CDs with my computer, and selling them outside malls...I doubt they'll care, that I used the sample. Oh, they care, but you're too small a fish for them to pursue. If you luck out and it somehow blows up to a position where it's actually doing something though, they WILL come see you. :1-say-yes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigted Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 (edited) Well if Barry Robinson is credited to writing the song, that means that the members of Furious Five weren't making any profit off of the song anyway, Barry Robinson is, this is a publishing issue since it's about the lyrics... Now it was the record labels who came up with this copywrite law for sampling, so more than likely they're the ones making the most money off of the sampling anyway, not the ones who are sampled. Artists only receiving a small portion for the records they sold or from their songs getting airplay unless of course they own their masters where they'll receive a lil' more profit, only a handful of recording artists do, for example Interscope makes a lot more money off of recording "Switch" than Will Smith would, he only gets a small amount unless he owns his masters.... I think all of these copywright laws take away from the fun of entertainment, I'll be real I buy burned DVDs from flee markets for a cheaper price just so I could see the movie, screw paying $20+ in a store when I could get it cheaper, a brotha's money's tight, lol. It's not like Furious Five never freestyled over old records at block parties and had to pay the record label for doing that? Come on now, I should be able to spit over an instrumental without worrying about being sued from a record label whether I got $2 or $2 million in my pocket, it's about doing it for expression, that's the fun of hip-hop, all of the corporal s*** takes away the fun of the game... Edited December 22, 2005 by bigted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cozmo D Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 That sounds kinda retarted though, why'd you or me be able to get away with not having to pay for samples on mixtapes we make while recording artists like JJFP and Kanye West have to cough lots of dough to clear the samples they use? :hmm: If we were famous I guess that'd be a different story, they know we're broke so they can't sue us, lol, I still wouldn't take that chance 'cause you never know, I should get a job in the FBI and crack down on all that, I'd make a lot of paper... btw I notice that it doesn't mention UTFO in the credits of "If You Can't Dance", Will might be facing another lawsuit..... Furious Five shouldn't complain about JJFP sampling them without permission when a lot of ol' school rappers like them were allowed to get away with not paying for samples back then, JJFP didn't have to pay for all the million samples they used on "He's The DJ...", I think in the early '90s they started clamping hard on sampling laws.... What did he use of UTFO's in "If You Can't Dance"? Why shouldn't people complain about their property being stolen? Would you say the same thing if 50 Cent stole some old JJFP hook and didn't pay them? Because JJFP got away with stealing on "He's The DJ..." they should be able to get away with it now? with the UTFO verse/ on if u cant dance.. if Will is taking an old school verse and making it his own..he does change the lyrics.. does that mean he still has to get it cleared or noted in the credits? Depends... I'd have to hear it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WesSyde Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 (edited) here ya go Coz: http://s16.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=18ZKQR0...1V1FF3N2PG75F4T the verse in question starts at about 1:35 in the track Edited December 22, 2005 by reborn2reign Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cozmo D Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 Like I was saying though, nobody should have to pay for samples, not you, not me, not Kanye West, not Public Enemy, Public Enemy can't afford that many samples anymore so a lot of people don't like their production as they used to, that hurt their career, Kanye said in an interview that he's in $600,000 from sampling, that could hurt his career in the long run, that's their job you're messing with when you sue them.... I think it's messed up, the ones that're sampled make their own money too, we as fans put out money to buy their albums, I think we have the right to sample them for free, sampling is a part of respect, the artists we sample influence us, if they need money they should get a job like anybody else, there's many people broke that nobody feels sorry for, I barely make ends meat and I manage to buy CDs so if somebody I like sues me, I'd be pissed 'cause I could've used the money for the CD to buy another shirt, a bill, or food.... If Furious Five are broke, they should make another album or tour, not sue Will Smith... I really don't know how to answer this. Have you ever created anything in your life? Anything? Are you saying that everybody in the world could have the right to just take anything that you created and use it, and you would be fine with it? :stars: Well if Barry Robinson is credited to writing the song, that means that the members of Furious Five weren't making any profit off of the song anyway, Barry Robinson is, this is a publishing issue since it's about the lyrics... Now it was the record labels who came up with this copywrite law for sampling, so more than likely they're the ones making the most money off of the sampling anyway, not the ones who are sampled. Artists only receiving a small portion for the records they sold or from their songs getting airplay unless of course they own their masters where they'll receive a lil' more profit, only a handful of recording artists do, for example Interscope makes a lot more money off of recording "Switch" than Will Smith would, he only gets a small amount unless he owns his masters.... I think all of these copywright laws take away from the fun of entertainment, I'll be real I buy burned DVDs from flee markets for a cheaper price just so I could see the movie, screw paying $20+ in a store when I could get it cheaper, a brotha's money's tight, lol. It's not like Furious Five never freestyled over old records at block parties and had to pay the record label for doing that? Come on now, I should be able to spit over an instrumental without worrying about being sued from a record label whether I got $2 or $2 million in my pocket, it's about doing it for expression, that's the fun of hip-hop, all of the corporal s*** takes away the fun of the game... First of all, there was no sampling involved. It was an interpolation, which makes it a copyright and publishing issue, and those laws have been around longer than records have. 2nd, I really can't speak to this with you because you are not dealing in the real world. I'll tell you what though. Since you plan to do music, why don't you put this utopia of yours into motion by GIVING AWAY all of your rights for free. Put a disclaimer on all of your songs saying that anybody who wishes to can have all of your material free of charge. Good luck with that! :2thumbs: here ya go Coz: http://s16.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=18ZKQR0...1V1FF3N2PG75F4T the verse in question starts at about 1:35 in the track Thanx again R2R!!! Nope, nothing to sue for here. You can't copyright a rap cadence. :lolsign: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian Posted December 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 Like for example if I sample Michael Jackson, come on now, hasn't he made enough money off of selling 100 million albums and all the tours and endorsements he's had in his career? What does he need my money for?....I wouldn't take money if I was in that position, the artists deserve their money, just like if I helped somebody write a track, I wouldn't ask for money either if that artist is really my friend... He have problems with money, so I don't be puzzled if he would sue you:) & about paying for the sample. Puff Daddy paid a lot to make a posible to sample Sting song, & made "I'll be missing you". He made a big hit, earned a lot of money, but he paid for a sample & he hadn't problems with that. I can understand why F5 sued Will. It was their (maybe hard) work. Will used this without permission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cozmo D Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 I think we have the right to sample them for free, sampling is a part of respect, the artists we sample influence us, if they need money they should get a job like anybody else I just can't get over the gall of this statement! You show the artist you respect them by sampling THIER work, then say if they need money they should get a job like everybody else. HOW 'BOUT YOU DO YOUR OWN WORK!!! How is stealing showing respect? That's like telling some chick that you rape that she should be flattered because you thought she was worth raping. Don't want to pay me? THEN DON'T USE MY WORK!!! :mad: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 Sampling isn't stealingf though. take it from a producer, and i'm sure a lot of other producers i know would agree...The sounds in thos old classics are hard to immitate. it's justs t adifferent sound, and a different flavour....If we pay for the sample, I don't see how it's "Stealing",. or "NOT making my own worK"...It still is my own art, considering what you do to the sample. you don't just play the song, and add drums. you cut the sample, change things around, add stuff. it's a whole process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian Posted December 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 Sampling isn't stealingf though. take it from a producer, and i'm sure a lot of other producers i know would agree...The sounds in thos old classics are hard to immitate. it's justs t adifferent sound, and a different flavour....If we pay for the sample, I don't see how it's "Stealing",. or "NOT making my own worK"...It still is my own art, considering what you do to the sample. you don't just play the song, and add drums. you cut the sample, change things around, add stuff. it's a whole process. I heard that this process isn't easy thing, but someone can say that you are going on simple. oh, if you pay for a sample noone should say that it's stealing from law view, of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cozmo D Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 Sampling isn't stealingf though. take it from a producer, and i'm sure a lot of other producers i know would agree...The sounds in thos old classics are hard to immitate. it's justs t adifferent sound, and a different flavour....If we pay for the sample, I don't see how it's "Stealing",. or "NOT making my own worK"...It still is my own art, considering what you do to the sample. you don't just play the song, and add drums. you cut the sample, change things around, add stuff. it's a whole process. If you sample WITHOUT PAYING FOR IT or changing it to the point that it's unrecognizable it's stealing. That's all I am saying. If you use my bassline for the bassline in your song than you are using MY work for your bassline, not YOURS. Sampling isn't stealingf though. take it from a producer, and i'm sure a lot of other producers i know would agree... BTW, I'm a producer too... :2thumbs: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damian Posted December 22, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 If you sample WITHOUT PAYING FOR IT or changing it to the point that it's unrecognizable it's stealing. That's all I am saying. If you use my bassline for the bassline in your song than you are using MY work for your bassline, not YOURS. :word: Maybe some of you can't understand it clearly cause in the USA we can see it in mixtapes, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigted Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 (edited) A lot of times though people make unauthorised mixtapes just straight jacking other people's beats and rhyming over them 'cause they don't know how to produce but they want their rhymes to be heard so they could get some recognition, they shouldn't be penalised for this, this goes back to Vipa's point.... What's the difference between ol' school mcs rhyming over ol' school records and today's mcs rhyming over ol' school records?.... Let's be clear, a lot of amateur mcs also throw in lines from famous songs in their freestyles too.... I bet Furious Five probably might've said one or two lines from a famous song on the radio at that time in their freestyles... Now as far as producing, a lot of times samples are combined with the work of your own instruments, sometimes you might use mulitiple samples in the song but you can't afford to release it officially so that sucks for the producer, the track can't be used especially when you're a professional recording artist with a lower budget, it's harder for Public Enemy to be creative with samples if they don't have a high budget, the cost of sampling takes away from creativity, but somebody could release an unauthorised mixtape trying to get discovered as well but if they ever get discovered they might have to cut down on using samples just like Public Enemy since it's too expensive... It's not free to record tracks in the first place so if you add in paying for sampling, it could very well kill your budget.... In my opinion sample laws are as gay as the government spying on us, rich white men in suits that sign these recording artists are pimping the industry 'cause they're making most of the paper, not the artists.... Michael Jackson could sell one of his multi-million dollar cribs he don't even live in if he got money problems, he could sell his 100 million+ record selling masters of his own, or the 100 million+ record selling masters of the Beatles that he owns, most of us can't say that, have him step in my shoes then he'll see what money problems is, lol... I don't know why some ol' school rap artists have to be so critical of people trying to sample them for free now when they were able to get away with not having to pay from their samples, like Chuck D said in that interview, when the sampling machine came out in the early '80s through '89 rap artists could sample as many as they want without paying for it until the sampling laws came in early '90s.... These lyrics from Pete Rock and CL Smooth's "Straighten It Out" is relevant to this topic: "The funk legacy I pass on, clearancy for high rates Every time we sample all the past time greats Stick it in the SP-1200 beat, I make a loop Lovely, where the Troop in a Lexus coupe Just a little bit, set to make a whole lot happen The musical inside my rappin' Written by the C.L., produced by the P.R. And add in any credit that you heard thus far I start from scratch, cuz the bass line's critical Better than the original who first made it But now you want to sue me, but fans never boo me Believe I know the times, we been broke, too, G Here's another sample clear, seeya, get the hell outta here Like a bootleg, you're over for the year You'll only get the credit where the credit is due So, listen, what I shout out is true" This verse from Public Enemy's "Caught, Can I get a witness" also addresses that: "Caught, now in court 'cause I stole a beat This is a sampling sport But I'm giving it a new name What you hear is mine P.E. you know the time Now, what in the heaven does a jury know about hell If I took it, but but they just look at me Like, Hey I'm on a mission I'm talkin' 'bout conditions Ain't right sittin' like dynamite Gonna blow you up and it just might Blow up the bench and Judge, the courtroom plus I gotta mention This court is dismissed when I grab the mike Yo Flave...What is this? Get hyped, c'mon we gotta Gather around - gotcha Mail from the courts and jail Claims I stole the beats that I rail Look at how I'm livin' like And they're gonna check the mike, right? - Sike Look at how I'm livin' now, lower than low What a sucker know I found this mineral that I call a beat I paid zero I packed my load 'cause it's better than gold People don't ask the price, but its sold They say that I sample, but they should Sample this my bit bull We ain't goin' for this They say that I stole this Can I get a witness?" Edited December 22, 2005 by bigted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cozmo D Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 A lot of times though people make unauthorised mixtapes just straight jacking other people's beats and rhyming over them 'cause they don't know how to produce but they want their rhymes to be heard so they could get some recognition, they shouldn't be penalised for this, this goes back to Vipa's point.... What's the difference between ol' school mcs rhyming over ol' school records and today's mcs rhyming over ol' school records?.... Let's be clear, a lot of amateur mcs also throw in lines from famous songs in their freestyles too.... Now as far as producing, a lot of times samples are combined with the work of your own instruments, sometimes you might use mulitiple samples in the song but you can't afford to release it officially so that sucks for the producer, the track can't be used especially when you're a professional recording artist with a lower budget, it's harder for Public Enemy to be creative with samples if they don't have a high budget, the cost of sampling takes away from creativity, but somebody could release an unauthorised mixtape trying to get discovered as well but if they ever get discovered they might have to cut down on using samples just like Public Enemy since it's too expensive... It's not free to record tracks in the first place so if you add in paying for sampling, it could very well kill your budget.... In my opinion sample laws are as gay as the government spying on us, rich white men in suits that sign these recording artists are pimping the industry 'cause they're making most of the paper, not the artists.... Michael Jackson could sell one of his multi-million dollar cribs he don't even live in if he got money problems, most of us can't say that, have him step in my shoes then he'll see what money problems is, lol... I've got no problem with somebody using my stuff to get noticed, or to get a deal. In fact, people ask me to do this stuff all the time, and I usually tell them to go right ahead. There's a HUGE difference between that and using my stuff to make you money and then you not paying me my fair share. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzy Julie Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 did Will not pay u for the baseline from jam on it. i know he gave u credit tho right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigted Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 (edited) Think about this though, if I use a lot of samples for recording an album, I might not come away with much profit, especially if my album doesn't sell that much, Will probably spent a s***load recording "Born To Reign" with all them samples on it so when it flopped, that took a hit on his wallet unless he owns his masters but even if he don't, at least he has a movie career to fall back on and his resume is strong enough to have other labels knocking at his door, but I might not be able to say the same if that happened on my 1st album, the label might then drop me then I'll be back where I am now, lol...Sampling could take a heavy hit on a budget.... Edited December 22, 2005 by bigted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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